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ZZP Stage II kit - Yay/nay?

A

acammer

New member
I have a stock '98 GTP. Good running order, mechanically sound, 92k miles. I've recently scaled back as a performance enthusiast and sold my '96 Z-28. The mod bug is biting as hard as ever, and I think I'm going to need to scratch it soon - so I was thinking I could do some light modding to the GTP without sacrificing much in economy or reliability. The car doesn't get driven hard all the time, but its always nice to have the power there. So, I was amassing a list of must have mods, I was thinking 3" downpipe w/ ubend delete, CAI, and 3.5" pulley. Poking around ZZP's sight I found their stage II kit for $600, which includes the above (3.4" pulley) along with a tune, 104s, and a 180* t-stat. Thats about what I'd be looking to spend - can you guys think of a better bang for buck for that kind of money? Any problems you guys see with the kit? I'm new to the L67, but not at all new to engine mods/work - and everything looks pretty well balanced there to me - improved intake, improved exhaust (I'm aware of the stock downpipe/ubend shortcomings) along with some more boost and a tune suited to it, appropriate plugs and t-stat. I've scanned for knock, I see an occasional 1-2*, but nothing constant or that would be a cause for concern. I suppose I could stand a tranny flush (based on history - the fluid looks/smells just fine, but I dunno if its been done), but other than that the car is 100%.

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=944&catid=136
 


01GTP said:
read the safely modding your 3800 thread. stage kits are junk /thread.
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I've read the thread. I don't remember seeing it listed that the staged kits are junk - would you point out where I missed that. As I understand it, the fight with the 3800 is knock retard. Power is gained with air-flow and boost, as long as knock retard is kept in check. Cold air intake - better airflow/decreased knock - that '98 intake has those horrible 90* bends in it. 3" downpipe w/ U-bend deleted, better airflow, decreased knock. PCM tune - modified fueling and spark tables to work with increased airflow/boost, as well as tranny goodies, fan temps, speed limiter, etc. Tstat - lower engine temps, less KR potential. Autolight 104 - less KR potential. 3.4" pulley - 2-3lbs more boost - obvious boost in power. What part of this doesn't fit right in with what the guide suggests, or in a balanced plan to add boost and increase airflow, while take several good steps to running w/o KR?

matt5112 said:
yes, you'll gain a zillion HP and then it'll blow up because GM is ****.
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What's the contribution here, other than cluttering and derailing a thread?
 
we say that the stage kit is junk because 1/2 the stuff you can get at better prices and the other half of the stuff isnt enough to run the pulley that it comes with.
 
Bio248 said:
we say that the stage kit is junk because 1/2 the stuff you can get at better prices and the other half of the stuff isnt enough to run the pulley that it comes with.
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That sounds a lot more like there is some logic there - what part of that ZZP kit is either superfluous, or lacking for the 3.4" pulley? From what I see in the guide, everything there is recommended...
 


Basically get headers, DHP PCM, 3.4 pulley, one step colder plugs, slap a filter on the TB and save money and go faster.
 
matt5112 said:
Basically get headers, DHP PCM, 3.4 pulley, one step colder plugs, slap a filter on the TB and save money and go faster.
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Header/DP alone is gonna be $850ish, we haven't even got into the rest of that parts and we're well ahead of the budget I layed out in my original post. I agree that they are a great bang for the buck - just more buck than I'm looking to spend. Which of the mods mentioned above is unreasonable?
 
How about you get some Speeddaddy headers of ebay for around 200 shipped and send me the 600 dollars youll save. Plus with headers you wont need a down pipe. $850 Good god thats wayyy to much!!
 
Wow - thats a pretty amazing price for headers/downpipe. Hard to believe everything would be good quality/fit right at that price, but I'll definitely be searching around.

I put headers on my 3400 in my Grand-am about 6-7 years ago, at that point the only option you had was TOG headers, which were great, but expensive as hell. I had no idea people were building sets so cheap. I suppose when you figure you can do headers/downpipe for $200, or just a ZZP downpipe for around the same, it is a no-brainer. I had a DHP PCM in that car, no complaints there. Plugs make sense, T stat makes sense, pulley obviously makes sense w/ supporting mods. With regards to a cone on the throttle body/maf vs. a fender well or sealed box style intake, I've done enough testing with IATs on the 3400 with an under the hood cone vs. a fender well intake to know I am not dealing with heat soak issues (KR, timing tables) like an open under the hood has in daily driver situations. (Not sitting on a dyno with the hood open.)

I can see where you guys argue the Staged kit is a waste of money. Obviously there are cheaper exhaust options, pending some information on the quality/fit of those headers thats a great option. I suppose most of the rest I could piece together for about what the "kit" costs, and obviously be ahead of the game with headers. I appreicate the information/link windycity - that was very helpful.
 


Pretty sure somewhere in the opening I mention "stage blahblahblah kits are junk"...but I don't remember it was almost 12 pages on Microsoft Word.
 
I appreciate the links on the headers. On the dyno science of the cone on TB vs. box/fender setup, I'm not sold at all - not a real world test. Right on the TB would definitely provide the most airflow, and on the dyno with the hood open, isn't going to show its disadvantage. But if its under a closed hood attached to a hot motor sitting in stop light after stop light, the IAT's are going to be through the roof. I'm not guess at that, I know, I had a Aeroforce interceptor in my modded Grand Am and ran both a warm air/cone on the MAF setup and a cold air cone in the fenderwell setup. I used to drive Syracuse NY to Boston MA pretty frequently, in all seasons, and would pull out my fender well cold air intake to run the warm air setup in the winter months for the fuel economy (its a big difference when its < 30*F out) and keep the filter from getting covered in wintertime road grit.

The warm air setup would quickly blow past 130*F on hot days in stop and go traffic - as you tuner guys know those GM timing tables start pulling timing at something like 105*F (2* retard) and then more and like 112* (6* retard). I don't know the specifics on the L67 tables yet, but I'd assume they are similar. The fender well intake, while it would still definitely warm on hot days, didn't climb near as fast, nor get near as hot, and recovery to lower temps much quicker, the warm air setup would stay hot for quite a while.

I see the dyno test you linked was mostly inconclusive. Run your test hot, with real world IATs of a warm air setup in stop and go driving, and I think you'll see quite a dip. On a cool day with plenty of airflow from constant cruising - its fine. If you're where its hot with some significant stop and go, heat soak get very really, and very obvious.
 
you're forgetting the temp rises from the heaton blower haha.

In our cars the IAT tables pulls at most 2* of timing IIRC.
 


matt5112 said:
you're forgetting the temp rises from the heaton blower haha.

In our cars the IAT tables pulls at most 2* of timing IIRC.
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Fair enough - I haven't spent enough time with the car to really get into the specifics, so I can admit I don't have the full implications of the warm air/cold air debate. Without the IAT/timing retard tables I think you'd have less of a heat issue, but the fact would remain that IATs would typically run higher, and the cooler the better - I don't think there is any arguement there. The arguement, and its a reasonable one, is where you draw the line on cost vs. intake air temp.

I think I'll go ahead and grab a K&N cone for the tb/maf and start doing some IAT monitoring. I've gotta get specific numbers on the timing retard tables as well - if anybody has some good information on the stock tables from the PCM, post a link, PM me a document, or whatever, that would be great.

Thanks for the good information, I was worried about the direction this thread started out at.
 
Its more along the lines of flow vs intake temp.

You can spend lots of time on the topic but it wont make near as much of a difference as your tune will.
 
I didn't see it mentioned, but you need to start out by getting some way to scan all the time. Spend some bucks on a gauge or software up front, and it will save you a lot of headaches later. These cars are known to knock with just a stock pulley, so don't drop a pulley size until you know you are running knock free on the stocker at maximum timing (18-20*). You can't just scan once either, as different weather and other factors may create knock on occasion, and it is always good to know that under any conditions you can run knock free.

My personal experience is that the best mods are opening up the exhaust and keeping the engine cool. Headers is a good idea, and you definitely want a colder t-stat and colder plugs. I found that a CAI was restrictive and I was losing power from it, but I was running a 2.8 pulley at that point. There has always been a large debate about CAI vs. HAI. Try them both and see what works for you. You can make a Home Depot special CAI that will work just as good as any vendor setup.

IAT temps can pull up to 4 degrees of timing. If you are running stock timing (usually around 15-16* at WOT), then pulling 4 degrees is going to lose you a lot of power. Here is a stock IAT table:
iat.jpg


When you get a tune (or buy a tuned PCM), the timing reduction at higher IAT's is typically taken out. I'm not sure this is always a good idea, but if you have enough supporting mods, you should be ok. Just keep scanning and you will know for sure.
 
That kit:

ZZP PCM is generally regarded as an engine grenade. You'd need to buy someone else's tune.
You need a PLOG in addition to the downpipe (I don't think they sell it anymore as it costs close to SD headers itself). But a full set of speeddaddy headers will still flow better. The rest of it's nice. So, the total there, would be something like... $600+$250+200+shipping
 
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