water pump UD pulley

[TheOtherNick]

maybe its just hammer time.

 

[blueguy]

Nah, a formal debate is always nice...people just say what they think and believe it to be the best thing since sliced bread...when it really isn't.

 

[mechguy]

Oh I do.

What your not seeing is Matt gave cold hard facts and all you have is here-say.

So...keep on sayin'

Science is not "here-say".

I'm not sure what you are arguing about because his numbers in no way disprove the theory I provided. Similarly, I am not discounting his numbers. What ZZP is measures is up to them, which I already told you in so and so many words a few posts back. Good luck.

 

[matt5112]

Please try to read my posts a little more carefully.

Notice that I said "depends on your desired outcome" followed with "can use less power compared to a crank-driven pump...."

Clearly, I was stating this in the most general sense; disconnect your alternator when racing. That's why I called the battery a power reserve. I once drove my Olds Alero for over 50km without knowing that I had a broken serpentine belt (no alternator charging). The car did not stop until I turned off the ignition at my destination. That aside, disconnecting the alternator is something I will never do, for many reasons, but I will re-iterate that the aforementioned quote was clearly in the most general sense.

You'll run through batteries quite quickly. Generally the battery light comes on with the alt fails.

Your response of "The alternator spins regardless" is an interesting one. Very obviously, the energy conversion process I talk about is occurring. Again, you will want to notice some of my wording: "...an EWP should decrease your MPG..."

Nowhere do I give quantitative reference, simply qualitative.

You go on to mention some numbers and statistics which I don't care about because I was only providing theory between the two types of pumps. What the manufacturer claims is their claim and real-world testing sometimes provides unexpected results. Notice that I mention "real-world situations" in my second paragraph.

There are many reasons why ZZP claims that the stock WP is using almost 7 HP more than the electric version. Removing the the stock WP deletes one pulley and the associated friction, bearing losses, windage, etc. Also, how do the maximum flow rates compare....and there are many more reasons. The main point is that the theory I have provided is correct.

Again, read my posts more carefully.

Awaiting your response....

In a nice short summary:

The power being used by the water pump pulley appears to be greater than the already existent load created by the alternator which is also more than sufficient to power an electric pump.

I never said thermodynamics were wrong.

Nor does my napkin math suggest it.

It merely suggests you'd find similar or improved fuel economy by utilizing the wasted power that the alternator is drawing as well as reducing the mechanical load on the crank thus the engine itself by removing the mechanical water pump.

I see you're trying to take a fine line here and stick to your precise wording.

But whats interesting to note is your emphasis.

Note this section here:

It should be noted that an EWP should decrease your MPG because of the inherent energy conversion process.

Its on the decrease which implies you are assuming that logic says the decrease is more likely.

But..... The logic is this:

The alternator provides a load on the engine. Full load on the engine is 4 HP. (105 A output at 14.4 V, 50% efficiency)

The WP does the same. Full load is 7 HP (Debatable, but still >0.26 HP)

Remove the WP entirely and add a .26 HP additional load via the alternator.

Even if an EWP is only good for a single HP you've minimized losses.

And to the guy who suggested hammer time..... You don't ban people who you dont agree with. That's childish.

 

[BoostJunki3]

In a nice short summary:

The power being used by the water pump pulley appears to be greater than the already existent load created by the alternator which is also more than sufficient to power an electric pump.

I never said thermodynamics were wrong.

Nor does my napkin math suggest it.

It merely suggests you'd find similar or improved fuel economy by utilizing the wasted power that the alternator is drawing as well as reducing the mechanical load on the crank thus the engine itself by removing the mechanical water pump.

I see you're trying to take a fine line here and stick to your precise wording.

But whats interesting to note is your emphasis.

Note this section here:



Its on the decrease which implies you are assuming that logic says the decrease is more likely.

But..... The logic is this:

The alternator provides a load on the engine. Full load on the engine is 4 HP. (105 A output at 14.4 V, 50% efficiency)

The WP does the same. Full load is 7 HP (Debatable, but still >0.26 HP)

Remove the WP entirely and add a .26 HP additional load via the alternator.

Even if an EWP is only good for a single HP you've minimized losses.

And to the guy who suggested hammer time..... You don't ban people who you dont agree with. That's childish.

/thread :th_thumbsup-wink:

 

[Vegas~Blown]

I gave you 100% correct theory about these pumps.

I'd think a good mechanical engineer (ME from this point forward) would be able to apply "theory" into real world solutions and actually bring something to the discussion.

If you cannot comprehend that's fine.

oh --- I see the real problem now. egois inflatus.

LMAO.

or as they say in the places where the rubber hits the road --- I'd rather have one guy who knows what's going on than 10 who know the theory of how it's supposed to go.

just sayin'.:th_winking:

 

[matt5112]

don't resort to insulting people.

just shows how weak your argument really is.

Edit: Seems like the Mech guy doesnt want to respond?

 

[mechguy]

Edit: Seems like the Mech guy doesnt want to respond?

Actually I don't really see where the disagreement lies. The pump info I provided has not been disproven by any member. I gave that info to encourage individuals to "think" when they are considering a mod. It seems that understanding is not of value to some people. Some members appear to simply ignore my wording and/or are not able to understand english.

Anybody can go and look up a value or figure using internet. Why not go to ebay and buy one of those stupid electric superchargers for a few bucks that claim to give huge gains, or one of those silly spinning "tornado intake fan" things! If the individual refuses to think before doing then they might as well buy one of those.

I have seen one member post twice that he/she thinks "the alternator has the same drag no matter what"! I am still laughing at his/her expense! Yet you are ridiculing me for providing an informative approach. I think what it comes down to is that individuals see that I can provide a coherent answer and have only been a GPF member for a week, so they are cautious. I am totally fine with that that.

BTW, anybody (almost anybody) can go out and change a water pump. Engineers design the pump. Or the whole car for that matter.

This is turning into a longer reply than I hoped for, but if one of the people disliking my posts can actually demonstrate discontinuity, I would be happy to address that.....Why in hell not actually state what is wrong? LMAO. Otherwise I think productivity for this thread has ended.

 

[matt5112]

Actually I don't really see where the disagreement lies. The pump info I provided has not been disproven by any member. I gave that info to encourage individuals to "think" when they are considering a mod. It seems that understanding is not of value to some people. Some members appear to simply ignore my wording and/or are not able to understand english.

Deflect?

Anybody can go and look up a value or figure using internet. Why not go to ebay and buy one of those stupid electric superchargers for a few bucks that claim to give huge gains, or one of those silly spinning "tornado intake fan" things! If the individual refuses to think before doing then they might as well buy one of those.

Deflect?

I have seen one member post twice that he/she thinks "the alternator has the same drag no matter what"! I am still laughing at his/her expense! Yet you are ridiculing me for providing an informative approach. I think what it comes down to is that individuals see that I can provide a coherent answer and have only been a GPF member for a week, so they are cautious. I am totally fine with that that.

Deflect?

BTW, anybody (almost anybody) can go out and change a water pump. Engineers design the pump. Or the whole car for that matter.

Deflect?

There are many things that are poorly designed. Ask anyone who repairs anything.

This is turning into a longer reply than I hoped for, but if one of the people disliking my posts can actually demonstrate discontinuity, I would be happy to address that.....Why in hell not actually state what is wrong? LMAO. Otherwise I think productivity for this thread has ended.

Deflect?

Since this is going nowhere fast....

 

[blueguy]

This is dumb...take it to PM's