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Venom Coolers (intercool your snout)

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alkygto said:
http://www.grandprixforums.net/members/copgtp.html

Just read through your posts on your profile. You really have issues. You don't attempt to help anyone and all I see you do is bash. Please stay off this thread if you have nothing constructive to add.

Thanks.
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What does my other posts have to do with anything? How about staying on topic and explaining how in gods name this could help anyone......ever.

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Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

I am still in for results but:

Does Dyno Bob not know how to use an IR thermometer? He throws out numbers lower than what I can visibly see are higher on the thermometer. Plus the fact that he goes over the blower so fast that there is no way he is getting the actual temp.

I snout in that video looks like it was about 90 and the air coming in is 81...I can't tell what the middle of the blower reads because it is only reading it for a split second and claiming its 81.
 
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Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

If I knew dyno numbers could sell parts... I would put 2 garbage cans with broom handles running through them in a the ground and fire up MS paint.. i can draw myself a mean ass dyno graph.
 


Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

darkhorizon said:
2 garbage cans with broom handles running through them in the ground
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1984-pontiac-fiero-tps-21293705.jpg
 
Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

Pure2sin said:
Bump. lol
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thread finally died.

although this does not get the "tornado intake spinner" status, I would put this well into the "turbonator" blower fan catagory, as it probably would just cause more problems than it solves.
 
Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

For those curious about that SAE standard which you have to pay $66 to view a copy of it:

alkygto said:

BTW, did you know I built a supercharger dynomometer? Yeah, I worked with an EE (retired from Boeing and IBM) on the software to map these superchargers (and others) to see the benefits of port design and the effects of heat and air density on their output. Here is a video link of me running it on Bobs website_- Dyno of Eaton Supercharger on SXF1000 - YouTube and it was constructed and designed completely by me to SAE J1723_199508 standards Superchargers - SAE Standards and I've done extensive testing with it. It's loud, you'd like it.
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http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/pdf/papers/efficiency_paper.pdf

J1723 – An Overview
J1723 applies to the various types of available superchargers, including roots,
screw/lysholm, and centrifugal-type products. It applies to bench testing and has been
adopted by the SAE to specify, among others:
• A standard basis for supercharger efficiency rating
• Reference inlet air supply test conditions
• A method for correcting observed efficiency to standard conditions
• A method for presenting test results in an accurate and usable way
• A method to compare superchargers without the effects of engine dynamics and
intercooling
Strict requirements are set forth regarding the necessary laboratory equipment, test
measurement and accuracy, installation of the test article(s), test conditions, and
presentation of results. Some of the important instrumentation requirements include:

• Test Sections – Appropriately matched inlet and discharge test sections, of
specified diameter and length, must be used. Each of these shall be equipped
with multiple temperature and pressure probes installed at precise locations.
Pressure measurements shall be +/- 0.5 kPa (generally 0.1%) accuracy or better.
It is further required that the discharge test section be insulated between the
supercharger and at least 1 diameter beyond the outlet temperature
measurement location.
• Inlet Flow – A flow measurement device, with 1% or better accuracy is required.
• Torque Meter – +/- 0.5% or better accuracy required. This is for measuring
mechanical drive power to the supercharger and determining mechanical
efficiency.
• Speed/Tachometer – +/- 0.2% or better accuracy. During tests, input test speed
shall not deviate more than +/- 0.2%, or +/- 10 revs/min, whichever is greater.
Stabilization Requirement
In order to obtain accurate and repeatable results, the supercharger must be operated at
a fixed speed and flow setting, and all temperature readings must completely stabilize
before a data point can be logged. Stabilization is essential in order to obtain accurate
and repeatable measurements. Further, and in the case of testing centrifugal
compressors, thermal stabilization means minimum heat transfer from the compressed
air occurs, and the adiabatic assumption is supported. Given these, and only these
conditions, an accurate and repeatable efficiency measurement can be made.
Some Misconceptions
Believe it or not, there are some in the supercharger industry who contend that the J1723
standard is flawed and inappropriate for evaluating automotive supercharger products
because it “…does not account for the dynamic operation of a supercharger in actual
use.” This is further compounded by the belief that a supercharger may conversely run
cooler, i.e., somehow become more efficient when operating on the vehicle, even though
it tests poorly in the test cell. This erroneous thinking is apparently due to the
requirement that the supercharger be operated at fixed speed, flow, and pressure until
fully stabilized, before a data point can be logged, per the standard. This is quite unlike
the normal, dynamic operation when installed on a vehicle. Interestingly, other test codes
such as the ASME PTC-10 also require stabilization; this particular test code has been a
mainstay of industrial compressor testing for decades. Nonetheless, such arguments
readily collapse given the following realizations:
• Efficiency performance is entirely dependent on the design of the compressor –
poorly designed compressors perform poorly, whether operation is continuous
and stabilized, or dynamic.
• Given the same input drive speed and air-flow rate, a compressor will not
consume any less drive power when installed under the hood, than it does in the
test cell.
• A more efficient compressor, on the other hand, will always deliver cooler charge
air and consume less engine power than an inefficient compressor, at the same
(flow and pressure) operating point. This fact holds whether the compressor is
running continuously at the operating point, or rapidly “sweeps” through it.
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Curious about the following though:

• Test Sections – Appropriately matched inlet and discharge test sections, of
specified diameter and length, must be used. Each of these shall be equipped
with multiple temperature and pressure probes installed at precise locations.
Pressure measurements shall be +/- 0.5 kPa (generally 0.1%) accuracy or better.
It is further required that the discharge test section be insulated between the
supercharger and at least 1 diameter beyond the outlet temperature
measurement location.
• Inlet Flow – A flow measurement device, with 1% or better accuracy is required.
Click to expand...

I didn't see anything in your video showing the test bench to this effect.
 
Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

Video run did'nt have the full inlet tube installed. Outlet sensors are under the supercharger "inside" the test bench. I'm using a Ford MAF for the inlet flow measuring. Trust me, it's all there. CFM is calculated using multiple sensors,air temp, air density, MAF, can't just come up with a CFM #. I can also measure HP used to turn the SC based on amp load on the drive motor.

A lot of time and effort went into this, I would'nt be able to quantify or compare any of the data I've accumulated without meeting these specifications.
 


Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

alkygto said:
Video run did'nt have the full inlet tube installed. Outlet sensors are under the supercharger "inside" the test bench. I'm using a Ford MAF for the inlet flow measuring. Trust me, it's all there. CFM is calculated using multiple sensors,air temp, air density, MAF, can't just come up with a CFM #.
Click to expand...

Sounds good.

Curious as to why bob never developed a compressor map his blowers and say a competitors blower.
 
Re: Vemon Coolers (intercool your snout)

Oh, we've done the testing, but why post the information when everyone hates and no one believes it anyway? I get tired of trying to defend my information against people who clearly don't even understand the principles involved. Everyones an internet expert if they've taken a dremel tool to their blower.

I say this because Bob has done actual chassis dyno testing (on a Dynojet 248X he owns) and flow bench testing (on a Superflow flowbench he owns) and it all comes down to people say it is'nt "third party" so it must be biased. Do you think it would be any better on a blower dyno only he owns? Bob does more testing than anyone in the business and validates all his parts and ports. He's tested a lot of big name aftermarket TB's that don't outflow his ported stockers but he won't say it on the web. For example, his Stage 1 and Stage 2 ported TB's for the GT500 outflow the L&M and the Ford Racing TB's but he won't come out and say it. I helped him do the testing and logged the data myself.

I'm really not sure why people bash on him so much, I have an idea it is a small group of very vocal people who have tried for years to make him look bad. POSI is one of them. Then I suppose it's fashionable to ride the bandwagon. When you've had as many customers as Bob has unfortunately you can't make everyone happy. As I'm sure you've seen on here, if someone has a problem with a supercharged car, invariably they blame the supercharger first. They may have inumerable other issues but it's always the supercharger to blame. If they send it in to get rebuilt/bearings replaced/and or ported and that does'nt fix the "problem" then they still blame the supercharger and the shop that did the work. I've seen it many times and then they'll take it to a shop and see they have ignition problems, fuel delivery problems, bad sensors etc. But it's easier to get on the interwebs and bash a popular shop.

I made the test bench portable so we could take it to trade shows and car shows but we've yet to do that. So for now we use it to further port development and to test customer blowers for bad bearings and such.

This thread has gotten way off topic and I'd like a mod to close it. I'm tired of the bashing and when I have data I might start another thread about it. It's not my thread though so maybe thats up to stlmo_gtp but I think he'd agree. BTW he's going twin charged and I'm waiting on my own intercooler to arrive so thats why we have'nt updated on the Venom Cooler. I will have one on my car however and I'm pretty sure Brian will too.
 
Pure2sin said:
I am still in for results but:

Does Dyno Bob not know how to use an IR thermometer? He throws out numbers lower than what I can visibly see are higher on the thermometer. Plus the fact that he goes over the blower so fast that there is no way he is getting the actual temp.

I snout in that video looks like it was about 90 and the air coming in is 81...I can't tell what the middle of the blower reads because it is only reading it for a split second and claiming its 81.
Click to expand...

Go to channel and view the dyno video. Much more stable use of gun.
 
alkygto said:
This thread has gotten way off topic and I'd like a mod to close it. I'm tired of the bashing and when I have data I might start another thread about it. It's not my thread though so maybe thats up to stlmo_gtp but I think he'd agree. BTW he's going twin charged and I'm waiting on my own intercooler to arrive so thats why we have'nt updated on the Venom Cooler. I will have one on my car however and I'm pretty sure Brian will too.
Click to expand...

Show me the proof. You have yet to show us a before and after of results.

Stop crying about the thread and prove us all wrong. Until you're ready to do that, deal with the skepticism



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copgtp said:
Show me the proof. You have yet to show us a before and after of results.

Stop crying about the thread and prove us all wrong. Until you're ready to do that, deal with the skepticism



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Click to expand...

Don't you read? all I hear from you is.......

:th_blahblah:
 
Maybe it's because I'm posting from my phone, But I can't seem to locate the video that shows before and after inlet charge temperatures with a stock blower compared to this cooler installed.

I did see the video with the ir thermometer, but that does not to prove anything. I can put a bag of ice on a hot blower and show a temperature difference

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