HAI vs CAI. CAI wins
- Thread starter szalajka05
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Bio248
DUI BABY
this is an opinion based on your own feelings.
to me it is not. to you it is. who cares? the fact of the matter is that it isn't a part on ANY setup that is either helping or hurting in any considerable way so there really shouldnt have to be any debate on which is better. the debate will always end up being which one is better FOR YOU. do what you want, ill make a cheap intake and make just as much power. don't care.
it's an intake. everyone is gonna do it different. in fact, unless if i need the room for a tank of meth or something, i am going to leave the stock air box there and run a nice 3.5" mandrel bent pipe between it and the motor and be done with it.
SlowNA06
New member
I think there might be a bit too much passion surrounding this portion of the intake. I do not feel as if it is of particular significance for un-modded or lightly-modded vehicles. This is where folks are arguing "bang for the buck." I intend to test a more heavily-modded vehicle in the future. That's where I get the impression that the difference will matter. Until such time, it's my opinion that folks with such setups should try all options to see which squeezes those last couple drops of performance out of the vehicle. Horsepower numbers don't exactly correlate with track times either, so there is that to consider.
Mike Kopstain
New member
Guys, don't even argue horsepower than. I'm not saying that there is a substantial gain in horsepower by going with an isolated air filter versus one that's exposed to the engine bay. The benefits of the cold air setup are less tangible and this is why people fight fact with speculation or argue facts that are not relevant. You're running a safer setup with the cold air setup and this is exponentially more important as you drop pulley sizes. So yeah,if you're going to make the comparison about whether or not 1-3 horsepower is worth the difference in money than no, it's generally not but not every modification you do is about making more horsepower. Some of it is to ensure you're running the safest setup possible.
Your thermostat gives no gain; in fact it probably robs you of a couple horsepower but it makes the setup safer. There's any number of things like this that are similar where a tangible gain in power isn't noticeable but you still do it to keep your setup safe.
I also hear on a semi-regular basis that the hot air intake is only hotter for a few seconds and then is close to being ambient but the point that it's most important to provide cooler air (throttle tip-in) is when the hot air intake provides the hottest air. So while you think you're making a point in your favor, you're actually making the case for a cold air intake.
Plus, unless you're testing this stuff in a controlled environment, a single individual's results are worthless. I can make an intake appear to gain 20hp and I can make one appear to gain 1 - 2 horsepower and both results would be accurate.
If I'm coming off as abrasive please accept my apologies. I'm passionate. We've chose this forum as our new home to replace ClubGP so I'll learn to make my points better and hopefully you guys don't throw me overboard.
Just one point that I would make though: just because you've been doing A a certain way for B amount of time doesn't mean A is the proper/ best way to do something. I still learn new stuff every day and some of it is stuff that's crushed my preconceived notions about a certain subject but I'd rather be smarter than be stubbornly ignorant. When greeted with an opposing point of view respond with factual information that proves your point, not just a sarcastic response minimalizing the competing view.
Your thermostat gives no gain; in fact it probably robs you of a couple horsepower but it makes the setup safer. There's any number of things like this that are similar where a tangible gain in power isn't noticeable but you still do it to keep your setup safe.
I also hear on a semi-regular basis that the hot air intake is only hotter for a few seconds and then is close to being ambient but the point that it's most important to provide cooler air (throttle tip-in) is when the hot air intake provides the hottest air. So while you think you're making a point in your favor, you're actually making the case for a cold air intake.
Plus, unless you're testing this stuff in a controlled environment, a single individual's results are worthless. I can make an intake appear to gain 20hp and I can make one appear to gain 1 - 2 horsepower and both results would be accurate.
If I'm coming off as abrasive please accept my apologies. I'm passionate. We've chose this forum as our new home to replace ClubGP so I'll learn to make my points better and hopefully you guys don't throw me overboard.
Just one point that I would make though: just because you've been doing A a certain way for B amount of time doesn't mean A is the proper/ best way to do something. I still learn new stuff every day and some of it is stuff that's crushed my preconceived notions about a certain subject but I'd rather be smarter than be stubbornly ignorant. When greeted with an opposing point of view respond with factual information that proves your point, not just a sarcastic response minimalizing the competing view.
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Mike Kopstain
New member
It's largely in the tune but you can't really measure safety. If the engine blows you know you did bad but if it doesn't how do you measure that? How do you measure the added safety a cooler thermostat gives you or cooler plugs? Some things don't offer benefits that are as tangible as other parts. On a naturally aspirated car, who cares. I mean I'd still prefer a cooler intake charge but it's not a huge deal. On a supercharged car though, you want that air before the inlet to be as cool as possible. The blower displaces the same amount of air for every revolution regardless of your intake but if it's working to get that air in there then it's creating more heat, effectively limited the pulley size you can run and creating an environment more likely to experience knock under any particular condition.
SlowNA06
New member
0KR with a happy AFR is a pretty good place to start.
Using colder plugs than you need to kill knock is the opposite of safe, if I recall correctly.
I'm on-board with that.
Edit: I wanted to clarify that yes, cold air is more dense and shiny. And I want to shove it in an engine. But flowing the volume of air more easily is something I consider to trump a small air temperature difference. It's why we don't leave the stock airbox and filter on.
Then I wonder why the car I tested leaned out when I removed the box...
Are you saying boxes are a restriction because the supercharger works harder to get the air through them, creating more heat and creating a knock environment?
I would actually love to test blower heat on the next round of tests.
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TLSheff
New member
Why can't we all just let the trolls be trolls and the new people be new people.
I'm so tired of this arguement. Just let the new people argue that spending more money is better and while they are still building the perfect build we are all running 12s on our own at 1/5 of the price with just as much reliability.
The fact can be argued all day long, it can also change depending on your location. The same test in Oklahoma, US on my car, may be different from Mad Monkey in Canada. So who is to say who is right, if you don't like the DYNO Thread that shows proven results, spend the $300+ on a K&N and have a coke and a smile and STFU!
/thread
I'm so tired of this arguement. Just let the new people argue that spending more money is better and while they are still building the perfect build we are all running 12s on our own at 1/5 of the price with just as much reliability.
The fact can be argued all day long, it can also change depending on your location. The same test in Oklahoma, US on my car, may be different from Mad Monkey in Canada. So who is to say who is right, if you don't like the DYNO Thread that shows proven results, spend the $300+ on a K&N and have a coke and a smile and STFU!
/thread
gtpsleeper
New member
wouldn the restriction of a FWI negate alot of the cooling affects?
I mean while cold air may be better, unrestricted warm air is for sure > more restricted cool air (to a certain extent obviously...)
I mean while cold air may be better, unrestricted warm air is for sure > more restricted cool air (to a certain extent obviously...)
SnowFlake
Banned
Not true, Mike
A better intake will let the blower ingest more are per revolution. Volumetric efficiency.
It's crazy how many people think the m90 actually pulls 90ci per rev on an engine under boost.
But that's a whooooooooole new thread.
Mike Kopstain
New member
Not true, Mike
A better intake will let the blower ingest more are per revolution. Volumetric efficiency.
It's crazy how many people think the m90 actually pulls 90ci per rev on an engine under boost.
But that's a whooooooooole new thread.
The very nature of a roots blower is that it moves a fixed amount of air per revolution though. There are things you can do to ensure that the most air is getting into the blower which will improve this and things you can do to make sure the air it's moving is dense but it's still going to move 90 cubic inches of air per revolution. A better intake can not force the blower to take in more air than it's capable of but can allow it to live up to it's full potential and can effectively change how dense the air is that's being pushed through there. I've never seen anything contrary to that. That's why people move from blowers to true superchargers. You're moving from what essentially is an air pump to a compressor. If there's info contrary to that I'm all eyes though.
Well you know, it's a discussion forum where people discuss things...
I'm also not new but I might be a troll.
SnowFlake
Banned
Oh jeez Mike... that's a deep and dark cave you're wandering into.
A lot of people have it mixed up, and a lot of people simply don't get it.
The m90 is not 100% volumetrically efficient. It gets close under certain circumstances, however in the real world it is a way off from 100%.
Ask yourself this. Is the blower moving the same amount of air at a fixed blower speed on 5psi vs 10psi? If the amount of air is the same, then the inlet flow should be the same, right?
I went through this big time when I was explaining that under certain real world conditions the smaller TVS blower actually flows more air per revolution than the bigger, less efficient m90.
A lot of people have it mixed up, and a lot of people simply don't get it.
The m90 is not 100% volumetrically efficient. It gets close under certain circumstances, however in the real world it is a way off from 100%.
Ask yourself this. Is the blower moving the same amount of air at a fixed blower speed on 5psi vs 10psi? If the amount of air is the same, then the inlet flow should be the same, right?
I went through this big time when I was explaining that under certain real world conditions the smaller TVS blower actually flows more air per revolution than the bigger, less efficient m90.
Mike Kopstain
New member
Oh I get that. I don't have a map in front of me but I can totally believe that a TVS or other similar setup would outflow it down low. The M90 is pretty "loose" and gets more efficient as RPMs go up until a certain point where heat starts to play a part and you go back down. Can we agree on that?
SnowFlake
Banned
Oh I get that. I don't have a map in front of me but I can totally believe that a TVS or other similar setup would outflow it down low. The M90 is pretty "loose" and gets more efficient as RPMs go up until a certain point where heat starts to play a part and you go back down. Can we agree on that?
You're confusing two different types of efficiency though. Volumetric Efficiency (VE) is how much air the blower is moving relative to its size. As the blower RPM goes up, the gaps that the air can sneak back out of become less pronounced and the unit becomes more efficient. But that just means that it's moving more air relative to the air it moves at lower RPM per rev. The boost usually increases in upper RPMs though because as the blower's VE goes up, the engine's VE goes down... this makes more boost. And more boost pushes back against the blower and lowers the blower's VE relative to how it would perform had the boost not gone up.
Thermal efficiency is an entirely different subject, but to put it into just a few words... boost = HOT. The m90 makes a LOT of heat, we all knew that, but I don't think many people understand just how much heat it makes, how different weather plays into that, and how different blower RPM and boost levels drastically change the delta temps.
Pure2sin
New member
Its all relative...
Although I would like to see the percent of people who have a filter directly on their throttle body compared to having a tube and a filter.
Pretty simply put.....It takes colder air longer to get hot.....Is it going to make a huge difference..No.....Will it make a difference no matter how small that difference is....yes
Although I would like to see the percent of people who have a filter directly on their throttle body compared to having a tube and a filter.
Pretty simply put.....It takes colder air longer to get hot.....Is it going to make a huge difference..No.....Will it make a difference no matter how small that difference is....yes
Koniig
Brightening up your day.
Way to go everyone, you pissed off the Sheff
Why have I been reading his name as TLShelf up until just now?
My world has just been flipped upside down.
TLSheff
New member
LOL You'd be surprised how many people do that. I just let it go, unless they do it condescendingly and then its like
Oh Na Beetch!!!
First name is Trevor, somehow some people get Travis out of that... :th_scratchhead: So I just go with T.L.