Turbocharged400sbc
New member
the 4th gear accumulator housing is my mortal enemy
GI 2.93 1" gearsets, "Mr Norris' third fist" brace
- Thread starter Turbocharged400sbc
- Start date
BillBoost37
New member
Do you hate it more than your drawer of rolocs?
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
possibly, but i dont hate them, i just dont use em with internal components.
my hope is that with the stator support/gear deflection reduced that the chain would last longer with more of the chain in contact.
whether it actually does help is yet to be proven but daves theory is extremely plausible after measuring the BFTGTs old sprocket wear.
actually a good, bit, a recent breakthrough of sorts...ive been cycling through different designs and layouts for something thats "bolt in"
biggest issue has been the lack of real estate due to the 4th accumulator housing. i was almost to the point of making a accum delete to give me the room...since 4th is essentially a highway/cruise gear, esp with the new 2.93 FDR gears.
i finally had an epiphany and the newest design is quite promising and would only require the accum housing and pin to be shaved. its so simple and elegant i feel quite dumb for not figuring it out sooner than v3800231.1
i need to clamp in two directions at the case center support and ive settled on using the NPT thread to expand an arm to clamp it, as well as tension towards the stator support at the same time, two birds, one simple tiny stone...
i dont have a hard unit in hand but i can offer a pic of the dxf. the design uses 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4" chromoly plate, with a .100 thick ground plate under the modified stator support.
at the lower left you can see the arm and the hole thats tapped for 1/8-27 npt before the slots are joined to the plug hole (small hacksaw/mini air saw) to release the arm after tapping.
when tightening the plug pushes the arm to the left as well as flexing the top leg downward. providing a quite nice clamping action.
the notch is for the leg's jaw that you can see all the way at the bottom right.
i dont think im gonna be able to make em quite as cheap as i had thought but it should be far cheaper than dave's billet unit as well as not needing case or channel plate mods.
only the stator support and the 4th accum parts are swapped out with modified units.
i still have to talk with dave and get him to ship me some spare 4th accum cups and pins and stator supports for the first 5 units.
if dave likes it enough ill shoot for a second batch but we'll see i guess
BrandonHall10
Solving problems
Any updates?
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
I have a 4'x4' plate of .125 4130 for this brace. ive been trying to simplify it and at least make a single batch. ive got it to clear the 4th accum.
someday
someday
GeosGP
New member
Good to know. I'm not ready for it today, but sometime soon I would imagine. The car is stock, but will not be for long. Plus, this transmission is already kinda sketchy with the "No Forward Cold" issue, was wanting to try my hand at a rebuild, maybe take the blower for as far as it will go. I haven't have a GP in years (last one was NA), wondering what would be fun with it. It's a daily driver, but I can actually manage to drive it in a civil fashion.
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
you probably wouldn't need this stuff.
trying to get a blower car to make enough power to flex the case like the big dogs....would be quite difficult
trying to get a blower car to make enough power to flex the case like the big dogs....would be quite difficult
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
the thing is the stator support isn't straight, the SC 04 trans I have apart and my mockup trans have permanently deformed the bell's bowl.
this isn't just about the stator support, the IS is allowed to run out of axis due to the sprocket pull, this thing needs an outboard bearing instead of the hydrostatic TCC circuits of the IS to channel plate sleeve section. we straight up went and wobbled the sprocket at the slip/grip at full boost.
no other way to put it, the wear on MatM's drive sprocket only proves the issue.
I need to post picks but we have direct flexplate/converter contact from flex, the converter bushing is worn and walked out, she was polishing the inboard side of the stator snout, the pump shaft ground against the GMR IS (.030 clearance all around) and caused the ISS tone wheel to hit the very nose of the VB to CP bolts (only protrudes .015-grinding em short in future) causing the 3 bolts to break and shredding things.
for the most part the channel plate sleeve is within .002 for the stator support/sprocket needle bearing (which has play itself)
with an outboard bearing I hope to fix the problem. ill get pics sometime soon
this isn't just about the stator support, the IS is allowed to run out of axis due to the sprocket pull, this thing needs an outboard bearing instead of the hydrostatic TCC circuits of the IS to channel plate sleeve section. we straight up went and wobbled the sprocket at the slip/grip at full boost.
no other way to put it, the wear on MatM's drive sprocket only proves the issue.
I need to post picks but we have direct flexplate/converter contact from flex, the converter bushing is worn and walked out, she was polishing the inboard side of the stator snout, the pump shaft ground against the GMR IS (.030 clearance all around) and caused the ISS tone wheel to hit the very nose of the VB to CP bolts (only protrudes .015-grinding em short in future) causing the 3 bolts to break and shredding things.
for the most part the channel plate sleeve is within .002 for the stator support/sprocket needle bearing (which has play itself)
with an outboard bearing I hope to fix the problem. ill get pics sometime soon
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
HA!
id sooner make an adapter plate for something better...or the 4t80e
id sooner make an adapter plate for something better...or the 4t80e
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
All im doing is finding and fixing weak links... not many folks will do swaps aside from the fiero freaks...
and it is doable but you need megasquirt for the new style "solenoid pack" trans controls (at least you also get boost control per gear/timer, true 3 bar VE, near plug and play with the 3x/18x, coil per cylinder spark, etc
the 80e is at least controllable with our pcm...but its a tough swap itself.
something that requires a machined drive sprocket and channel plate is a drop in affair to fix the wobble/whiplash issue
that's something the big dogs will rally behind, if it means that the 7/8ths is vastly stronger then more can use simple turbo setups without the "replace it every year" deal
I really don't care if it catches on, I have plenty of limited run parts out there but id like the heritage cars to have em so im making a few since ill have the machine time.
the stator support brace is ready to run, after testing the 1/8" 4130 chromoly stiffness im plenty sure the clamp and foot are plenty with the flat bonded to the converter bell with rtv. the good news is that by doing the welding a certain way with the stator plate to the brace body it will preload the stator support. with that holding the stator support firm and directly transferring the OE IS/needle bearing radial load to the midcase.
without the outboard bearing it would likely minimize twist but with the outboard bearing taking half the load through the 3" ribbed cast alum CP/VB (which also supports the midcase) youd drastically increase power handling/chain alignment, and keep the ISS tone wheel.
I love the turbo regal, id love to go fast in it and not just be a dyno/half mile queen.
im sure mattM, Mr Norris, dread, etc would love to try it.
I just think that with the outboard bearing taking half the load and the needle bearing having the assistance of the converter to hold things true the OE needle bearing load path would do just fine with purely radial load.
that and the brace does require pre machined stator support with the .100 notch/register for the brace.
im still looking for a tighter packaged bearing to make it small enough for even the 33 tooth (3.69) sprocket diameter
id bet the fiero freaks would love that....
ever wonder how it is that so many cars break flexplates? ever wonder how we have so many broken input shafts (at the Oring/spiral fracture near the IS/stator support bushing)? wonder why people can shag the turbine sprag/ their converter?
I do
especially after seeing the converter to billet flexplate contact/paint removal....torn up pump shaft and walked out converter bushing.
finding our stator support is .005" out of alignment at converter nose end of the IS shows this case may already y be trash. but finding that the CP/CP sleeve is within .002 of the stator support OD shows OEM tolerances are not great but keep in mind that the IS needle bearing has slop too.
the recent contact of the tone wheel to the CP bolt head shows this thing can really move when under 600ftlbs of load, and even more so when you slip&grip.
then we'll have full face contact on the chain, and probably find the next weak link...but at least on the street tires he wont worry about chain whiplash with potholes/rough highways.
plus maybe I can still convince kevin to shoot for the 10 second club and be a true Heritage car.
this thing hauls at 26psi and I think we can readily hit 10.9x at 140+ with the new multi stage boost controller keeping the trans happy off the line.
don't get me wrong, this heap has me repeatedly falling in love with the 4t80e and its much better (and expensiver) engineering
im sure it has weaknesses in its hard parts, but im confident that a good low mile core unit with the pressure regulator mods, torlon check balls, and accum shims is an easy way to keep it alive to find out.
its what separates the big dogs from the sissy's
and it is doable but you need megasquirt for the new style "solenoid pack" trans controls (at least you also get boost control per gear/timer, true 3 bar VE, near plug and play with the 3x/18x, coil per cylinder spark, etc
the 80e is at least controllable with our pcm...but its a tough swap itself.
something that requires a machined drive sprocket and channel plate is a drop in affair to fix the wobble/whiplash issue
that's something the big dogs will rally behind, if it means that the 7/8ths is vastly stronger then more can use simple turbo setups without the "replace it every year" deal
I really don't care if it catches on, I have plenty of limited run parts out there but id like the heritage cars to have em so im making a few since ill have the machine time.
the stator support brace is ready to run, after testing the 1/8" 4130 chromoly stiffness im plenty sure the clamp and foot are plenty with the flat bonded to the converter bell with rtv. the good news is that by doing the welding a certain way with the stator plate to the brace body it will preload the stator support. with that holding the stator support firm and directly transferring the OE IS/needle bearing radial load to the midcase.
without the outboard bearing it would likely minimize twist but with the outboard bearing taking half the load through the 3" ribbed cast alum CP/VB (which also supports the midcase) youd drastically increase power handling/chain alignment, and keep the ISS tone wheel.
I love the turbo regal, id love to go fast in it and not just be a dyno/half mile queen.
im sure mattM, Mr Norris, dread, etc would love to try it.
I just think that with the outboard bearing taking half the load and the needle bearing having the assistance of the converter to hold things true the OE needle bearing load path would do just fine with purely radial load.
that and the brace does require pre machined stator support with the .100 notch/register for the brace.
im still looking for a tighter packaged bearing to make it small enough for even the 33 tooth (3.69) sprocket diameter
id bet the fiero freaks would love that....
ever wonder how it is that so many cars break flexplates? ever wonder how we have so many broken input shafts (at the Oring/spiral fracture near the IS/stator support bushing)? wonder why people can shag the turbine sprag/ their converter?
I do
especially after seeing the converter to billet flexplate contact/paint removal....torn up pump shaft and walked out converter bushing.
finding our stator support is .005" out of alignment at converter nose end of the IS shows this case may already y be trash. but finding that the CP/CP sleeve is within .002 of the stator support OD shows OEM tolerances are not great but keep in mind that the IS needle bearing has slop too.
the recent contact of the tone wheel to the CP bolt head shows this thing can really move when under 600ftlbs of load, and even more so when you slip&grip.
then we'll have full face contact on the chain, and probably find the next weak link...but at least on the street tires he wont worry about chain whiplash with potholes/rough highways.
plus maybe I can still convince kevin to shoot for the 10 second club and be a true Heritage car.
this thing hauls at 26psi and I think we can readily hit 10.9x at 140+ with the new multi stage boost controller keeping the trans happy off the line.
don't get me wrong, this heap has me repeatedly falling in love with the 4t80e and its much better (and expensiver) engineering
im sure it has weaknesses in its hard parts, but im confident that a good low mile core unit with the pressure regulator mods, torlon check balls, and accum shims is an easy way to keep it alive to find out.
its what separates the big dogs from the sissy's
Turbocharged400sbc
New member
I believe it can be, I think it can end up being the th400 swap of our platform. yes it has issues, 3rd feeding through as many concentric bushings as it does is certainly one of em. im gonna do my best to prove how durable a good condition used 4t80e with a few mods can be with the 442.
Dave is one of my personal Hero's but I know with how well his bidness is doing and all of his projects that im gonna have to help trailblaze this one, remember im not the first to have done the swap, Jeff did with his bonnie, im just the first guy to figure out an quick way to make the 4t65e pcm control it with the WhippledRiv. that car proved to me how durable the 4t80e can be even stock, and that car was always spinning tires (slip n grip sucks for trans life)
the TR has shown me that the 4t65e is very lacking in its support of modded 3800's without serious cash.
that and im crazy
car modding history is full of collaborative efforts of fellow gearheads, both formal and informal, successful and unsuccessful alike. butting heads is always a part of it.
making the 4t80e a viable nearly bolt in swap is worth it and imma work to prove it.
Dave is one of my personal Hero's but I know with how well his bidness is doing and all of his projects that im gonna have to help trailblaze this one, remember im not the first to have done the swap, Jeff did with his bonnie, im just the first guy to figure out an quick way to make the 4t65e pcm control it with the WhippledRiv. that car proved to me how durable the 4t80e can be even stock, and that car was always spinning tires (slip n grip sucks for trans life)
the TR has shown me that the 4t65e is very lacking in its support of modded 3800's without serious cash.
that and im crazy
car modding history is full of collaborative efforts of fellow gearheads, both formal and informal, successful and unsuccessful alike. butting heads is always a part of it.
making the 4t80e a viable nearly bolt in swap is worth it and imma work to prove it.