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Camo guy's thread about cams

C

camopaint0707

Banned
So when I have the engine apart to do a cam swap, gen V blower swap, pulley drop, headers. What are some maintenance things I should address while the motor is torn down? Things I already plan to replace lower intake manifold gasket, valve cover gasket, fuel filter, spark plug wires, spark plugs, thermostat, transmission filter, probably a coolant flush, and an oil change. Any other suggestions? Head gasket?
Thread is now a cam swap engine rebuild thread so if a mod could change the title that would be great.
 
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Re: Installing new cam

Headgaskets are rarely a issue unless you plan to remove the heads to install the valve springs I would skip that.
 
Re: Installing new cam

Assuming that while you are doing the cam, you are doing the timing chain, springs, retainers, valve seals. I personally don't do the crank seal unless it's leaking.

I would suggest the rear engine cover seal. And use some blue loctite when reassemebling it. Reason being is these bolts have low torque from the factory and this allows the gasket to seep. It appears as an oil pan leak that you can't seem to seal. Once you are done with the cover, then the oil pan is the next logical gasket. That will give you nearly all new gaskets.

Consider an oil pressure kit while you are at it.
 
Re: Installing new cam

Easier to replace the crank seal when you do all that..I took the easy way and left mine alone when I did the cam swap and shortly after had to go back and change it :( I also change the CPS while I was there since I already had a new one sitting on the shelf.
 


Re: Installing new cam

You might want to take a look at your cam bearings when you pull the old cam. The bearings should be silver/grey with very little gold showing. It is common for the LIM gasket to leak coolant on the cam and wear out the bearings.... happened to me when I planned on doing a cam install. That project turned out into a full motor rebuild for me. Also like Bill said with a higher lift cam you will want stronger springs... usually 105's for a stage 1 type cam. I'd change the water pump and install the new aluminum elbows too. You might want to consider changing the hoses if they are the original ones.
 
Re: Installing new cam

REDCOMPG said:
Headgaskets are rarely a issue unless you plan to remove the heads to install the valve springs I would skip that.
Click to expand...
Do I need to remove the head gasket to do the swap? (never done a cam swap before)
BillBoost37 said:
Assuming that while you are doing the cam, you are doing the timing chain, springs, retainers, valve seals. I personally don't do the crank seal unless it's leaking.

I would suggest the rear engine cover seal. And use some blue loctite when reassemebling it. Reason being is these bolts have low torque from the factory and this allows the gasket to seep. It appears as an oil pan leak that you can't seem to seal. Once you are done with the cover, then the oil pan is the next logical gasket. That will give you nearly all new gaskets.

Consider an oil pressure kit while you are at it.
Click to expand...
I think there is an oil leak on the car currently and that might be it. It's getting AC recharged so I'll ask them to take a look at it. I am upgrading the springs and retainers with the cam. I'll add the timing chain for sure. Valve seals? Like the valves on the head? And would the rear engine seal be taken out during the cam swap or are you just suggesting that as maintenance anyway.
REDCOMPG said:
Easier to replace the crank seal when you do all that..I took the easy way and left mine alone when I did the cam swap and shortly after had to go back and change it :( I also change the CPS while I was there since I already had a new one sitting on the shelf.
Click to expand...
CPS is crank position sensor?
tms8582 said:
You might want to take a look at your cam bearings when you pull the old cam. The bearings should be silver/grey with very little gold showing. It is common for the LIM gasket to leak coolant on the cam and wear out the bearings.... happened to me when I planned on doing a cam install. That project turned out into a full motor rebuild for me. Also like Bill said with a higher lift cam you will want stronger springs... usually 105's for a stage 1 type cam. I'd change the water pump and install the new aluminum elbows too. You might want to consider changing the hoses if they are the original ones.
Click to expand...
I did get a new LIM to put on. Would the cam bearings be replaced with the new cam or not? Like I said never done a swap before. And I might do the water pump too since the engine is gonna be pretty dismantled at this point.
 
Re: Installing new cam

You don't need to take off the heads to do a cam. However taking them off and sending them to machine shop to be cleaned up and have the new springs, retainers and valve seals installed is the way to go if you have the extra cash. The rear seal is for the crank not the cam. CPS is a crank position sensor. You can install a cam without changing bearings however if the bearings are worn you may want to replace them. This is not an easy task by itself because they are pressed in and when removed could leave metal particles in your block. Most people who replace cam bearings send the block into a machine shop and do the entire lower end. Do you have a mechanic helping you with any of this? Everybody on here says to add a cam instead of rockers however changing out a cam is not the simplest thing for an inexperienced person. A bigger cam with throw a random misfire code and require programing your PCM also. I'm not trying to scare you but there is a little more to this stuff than some on here will let you believe. An option to the cam with almost as good results is 1.9 rockers instead. You could take off the heads and have the machine shop clean heads and install springs. It's possible to drop a valve in the cylinder if a person doesn't know how to changes springs while the head is on the block.
 
Re: Installing new cam

My 1.84's provide a nice difference vs stock, sure a cam is much better but much more involved as stated.
 


Re: Installing new cam

tms8582 said:
You don't need to take off the heads to do a cam. However taking them off and sending them to machine shop to be cleaned up and have the new springs, retainers and valve seals installed is the way to go if you have the extra cash. The rear seal is for the crank not the cam. CPS is a crank position sensor. You can install a cam without changing bearings however if the bearings are worn you may want to replace them. This is not an easy task by itself because they are pressed in and when removed could leave metal particles in your block. Most people who replace cam bearings send the block into a machine shop and do the entire lower end. Do you have a mechanic helping you with any of this? Everybody on here says to add a cam instead of rockers however changing out a cam is not the simplest thing for an inexperienced person. A bigger cam with throw a random misfire code and require programing your PCM also. I'm not trying to scare you but there is a little more to this stuff than some on here will let you believe. An option to the cam with almost as good results is 1.9 rockers instead. You could take off the heads and have the machine shop clean heads and install springs. It's possible to drop a valve in the cylinder if a person doesn't know how to changes springs while the head is on the block.
Click to expand...
I'm looking for a more knowledgeable person to help me do this mild build. When I do the cam swap I wanna do all the maintenance stuff too while the engine is down. I have a tuner lined up. I am changing the valves #90 and the retainers, 105s I believe. Should I add a new crankshaft seal? I'll add a rear seal. This is essentially turning into a mild engine rebuild.
 
Re: Installing new cam

Per the FSM:
CPS is Cam Position Sensor
DKPS is Crankshaft Position Sensor
Most people confuse the two and say cps when they mean crank, because they haven't been quite as deep in the FSM as others of us.

Crankshaft seal: I don't change the timing cover crankshaft seal because there is a groove worn into the harmonic balancer where it seals. Change that and you may have a leak in the future. A seal has to clean it's spot to seal. The original wasn't leaking and it won't leak if you don't hurt it upon reinstallation. That's my experience though.. many guys automatically change perfectly good parts.

Water pump: I feel the same way about the water pump. I've seen pumps go 300k+ and I've seen new pumps fail in under a year. The pump is easy to change in the engine bay, so why change something that is working fine and easy to work on?

Rear engine cover: This is the metal cover on the back of the motor behind the flex plate. Most mechanics will look at an oil leak from it and think it's a rear main as most engines don't have rear cover gasket leaks. Most don't have a rear cover at all. Again, from experience these bolts get less than finger tight and seepage occurs. Our one piece rear main seals don't usually leak. Like the front crank seal...you can change a perfectly good seal if you'd like. Often I don't, I fix the leaking gasket. This is not part of doing a cam, it's not part of any other job really.

Pulling a motor to swap a cam. Want to save some time, effort and gaskets? It wasn't long back that a long time Dodge guy asked us about doing a cam w/o pulling the lifters based on inverting the motor and the spinning it over a couple times to have the lifters fall into their retainers. This works. If you remove the rockers and pushrods, then turn the motor upside down, spin ghe crankshaft by hand, the lifters will be in a position where you can remove and install the cam w/o having to remove them or the LIM gasket.

Here is the way I'd do your cam swap in order by steps:
1. Remove engine from bay.
2. With engine still on hoist, mark the position of the flexplate on the crank and flex.
3. Remove flex and oil pan
4. Change rear engine cover gasket.
5. Put flex back on and lightly bolt oil pan in place to keep crap out of the engine. (Note that there is 3/8" of oil below the drain plug on a steel pan)
6. Put engine on stand
7. Remove spark plugs, valve covers, TB, and rockers.
8. Change your valve springs, valve seals and retainers.
9. Invert engine and turn crank about 5 full revolutions
10. Remove timing cover, timing chain and camshaft (vice grips on the flex will help get any bolts freed up since the rotating assembly will want to turn)
11. Put in new cam, new timing chain (take a picture of the dots lined up, always..take this one picture) and replace the timing cover.
12. install oil pan and new oil pan gasket. (with the front and rear covers in place..this is the best time)
13. Look at knock sensors visually to ensure they haven't gotten hurt by any of the work.
14. Turn engine right side up and install pushrods, rockers, new rocker bolts and valve covers (with new gaskets and grommets)
15. Reinstall engine
16. Reinstall freshly cleaned TB

always use new gaskets, I'd suggest against ZZP gaskets based on experience. Their garlocks are joked as being garleaks and their valve cover gaskets seem cheaper because they don't come with grommets and dont' fit in stock valve covers. If you use discount codes and some shopping around, you can get gaskets cheaper.

One other tip is if you use Advance Auto for some of the stuff their lower conversion set is a win. It contains oil pickup, water pump, timing cover, front crank seal, rear cover, rear main seal and oil pan for less money than the oil pan seperately. Serious..look it up it's funny. Since you just saved your SC and LIM gaskets..you should have a few extra bucks in your pocket for beer for the buddies. Don't skip and buy cheap beer for the guys helping you. Get them quality beer since you want them to do quality work.
 
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Re: Installing new cam

This is only good until some guy presents a set of LS7 lifters at the last minute and messes up your plans. :D
 


Re: Installing new cam

Bill is the guy to listen to. I just did a complete motor build this past winter winter and bill helped me a ton. I've read many of his how to's and pm'd him a few questions. I also have a good friend who is a mechanic and has built three l67's. I dont think I'd even tried to build the motor without my friend and this forum.
 
Re: Installing new cam

Bill, I know that was a lot of writing, lol, but I think you meant to say AGAINST ZZP gaskets... : )
(I have experienced the leaky valve cover gaskets of their's!)

Also... I agree... You can chump $ on parts, but never on beer! Case of Franziskaner's Hefe-Weisse can go nicely with engine work, although I'd strongly recommend most consumption post-install! Hahahaha...
 
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