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brake bleeding question

EHB

EHB

New member
ok i just bought the car..2000 gtp.. and the previous owner had recently just put on all new brake lines. i put on new pads and rotors all the way around. well the brakes were somewhat spongy but not too aweful bad , but they obviously needed bled . so we do the two man bleeding procedure and while not getting a rock hard pedal it felt a little better..that is until i started the car and they went to the floor with little resistance. so we repeated the procedure 3 more times and same results. put the car on the lift while i pumped the brakes and can't find a leak in the lines anywhere. so what happened ? i went from ok brakes to virtually no brakes . could we have somehow screwed up the master cylinder or brake booster during the bleeding ? oh and yes we made sure the reservoir was at the appropriate level the whole time.

also flushed the anti freeze (with machine) and can't get rid of the air bubbles. doesn't over heat , no coolant in the oil , pressure tested it. haven't got to fixing the heater yet so i can't check to see if it's blowing hot ,but the in and out lines both get hot so it's running through the heater coil. the low coolant light is on but it's probably just a dirty sensor. coolant level is good. don't see any leaks. water pump maybe ? also added new pressure cap and thermostat.
 
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to check the master cylinder do this... with the car turned off pump the brake pedal up until it is stiff... keep your foot on the brake pedal and start the car up... if it sinks to the floor, chances are the master cylinder is probably done. The only other thing that you can do is bleed the ABS system with the brake system and see if that improves the brake pedal.

If I remember correctly, there should be a bleeder valve in the cooling system that you can open up and that will flush any air out. Double check the coolant elbows and the lower intake manifold gasket to make sure that they aren't leaking on you.
 
EHB said:
ok i just bought the car..2000 gtp.. and the previous owner had recently just put on all new brake lines. i put on new pads and rotors all the way around. well the brakes were somewhat spongy but not too aweful bad , but they obviously needed bled . so we do the two man bleeding procedure and while not getting a rock hard pedal it felt a little better..that is until i started the car and they went to the floor with little resistance. so we repeated the procedure 3 more times and same results. put the car on the lift while i pumped the brakes and can't find a leak in the lines anywhere. so what happened ? i went from ok brakes to virtually no brakes . could we have somehow screwed up the master cylinder or brake booster during the bleeding ? oh and yes we made sure the reservoir was at the appropriate level the whole time.

also flushed the anti freeze (with machine) and can't get rid of the air bubbles. doesn't over heat , no coolant in the oil , pressure tested it. haven't got to fixing the heater yet so i can't check to see if it's blowing hot ,but the in and out lines both get hot so it's running through the heater coil. the low coolant light is on but it's probably just a dirty sensor. coolant level is good. don't see any leaks. water pump maybe ? also added new pressure cap and thermostat.
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This might seem like a dumb question, but were the brake bleeders facing up on those front calipers? I've seen too many with the bleeder facing south cause this issue. Otherwise, get a second person to start the car and push the brakes. Watch the fluid level in the master cylinder. If the level rises when the brakes are pressed, then guaranteed failed master cylinder. As for the cooling system, there's a bleeder on top of the thermostat housing to bleed air...you can try using that. Or you can remove the thermostat housing and fill coolant the rest of the way through there...that'll eliminate the majority of it in the engine. Remove heater hose from alternator bracket and "beer bong" it with coolant to eliminate air in the heater core.
 
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WickedGoat said:
to check the master cylinder do this... with the car turned off pump the brake pedal up until it is stiff... keep your foot on the brake pedal and start the car up... if it sinks to the floor, chances are the master cylinder is probably done. The only other thing that you can do is bleed the ABS system with the brake system and see if that improves the brake pedal.

If I remember correctly, there should be a bleeder valve in the cooling system that you can open up and that will flush any air out. Double check the coolant elbows and the lower intake manifold gasket to make sure that they aren't leaking on you.
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thats what i was saying. the pedal pumps up till you start the car then it goes to the floor. but before doing the bleed it wasn't. i had brakes they just felt a bit soft but they didn't go to the floor like they are now. it's like the bleed added air instead of removing. the guy i have working on it said he did a gravity bleed and has a good solid pedal , which during our 2 man bleed i never felt like the pedal got as hard as other vehicles i've done the 2 man bleed with. but for now i can't start the car because we finally discovered the fuel line leak the previous owner said it had , which is right in front of the fuel filter , so now i have to replace the fuel line from the engine back . of course nobody locally stocks the line and the only one he could find was in tennessee so it'll be awhile before i'll be starting the car again . i'm beginning to have a dislike for grand prix's. half the car will be new before i even get it inspected. looks like i'll be replacing the sway bar and tie rod ends too.

wouldn't pressure testing the system have shown a bad manifold gasket ? plus there is no coolant in the oil.
 
dorman has a fuel line fix for that. no need to replace the whole line.


you could have air in the master and abs pump still, if its sinking real easy id think air. you try to bleed the master yet?
 
Sven The Sexman said:
This might seem like a dumb question, but were the brake bleeders facing up on those front calipers? I've seen too many with the bleeder facing south cause this issue. Otherwise, get a second person to start the car and push the brakes. Watch the fluid level in the master cylinder. If the level rises when the brakes are pressed, then guaranteed failed master cylinder. As for the cooling system, there's a bleeder on top of the thermostat housing to bleed air...you can try using that. Or you can remove the thermostat housing and fill coolant the rest of the way through there...that'll eliminate the majority of it in the engine. Remove heater hose from alternator bracket and "beer bong" it with coolant to eliminate air in the heater core.
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yes the caliper bleeders are up. and yes we used the bleeder for the coolant. haven't tried the methods your suggesting but i certainly will once we can start it again. thanks for the suggestion wicked and goat. much appreciated. this car is REALLY starting to frustrate me. never thought i'd be sinking this much into just to get it through inspection. i knew it had a few issues , like the need for brakes and rotors and the fuel leak , and i planned on replacing all the fluids and filter but it's starting to get ridiculous since i'm on a budget.

so far i've replaced or changed...
oil and filter
coolant (flushed), thermostat, pressure cap, top radiator hose
brake fluid , pads, rotors , emergency brake cable
transmission fluid, filter , trans coolant line
headlights and tailight assemblies
supercharger oil

things i know that need replaced that's not done yet...
fuel line from engine to filter
sway bar
tie rod end
power seat switch
rear view mirror

things that still need investigated...
heater doesn't work (any speed)
DIC not working
hud not working
ABS light on (cleaned sensors but don't know if that fixed it yet)
SRS light on.
one fog light not working
 
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Scottydoggs said:
dorman has a fuel line fix for that. no need to replace the whole line.


you could have air in the master and abs pump still, if its sinking real easy id think air. you try to bleed the master yet?
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yes we have bled at the MC . my buddy at the shop who is basically a back yard mechanic learning on the job. the real mechanic recently quit so he's the only one there now , said he couldn't get the snap on scanner he has to bleed the ABS. He says its an old scanner that needs updated and the garage owner won't fork out the money to update it , but i suspect he may not actually know how to use the scanner properly and won't admit it.

can you post me a link to what i need ?
2000 pontiac grand prix GTP
 
the fan, check for power at the resistor, they go bad, if you got power test at the fan plug, if still no power it could be the ignition harness, that could aslo afect the dic and hud and the no power to the fan.

the air bag, the radio have steering wheel controls? if so do they light up and work? if not the colck spring is bad. or theres a dirty plug under the seat, or under the dash by the obd2 port. any yellow plugs to see are air bag related. or the air bag module under the pass side front seat and carpet could be bad.

the abs light, check for play in all 4 wheels lugs tight jack it up and grab the top of the tire and push and pull firmly, if you feel play that hub could be bad. if you cant find play or a bad wire, just have it scanned for codes at the local garage, its better then tossing parts at it.
 
Scottydoggs said:
the fan, check for power at the resistor, they go bad, if you got power test at the fan plug, if still no power it could be the ignition harness, that could aslo afect the dic and hud and the no power to the fan.

the air bag, the radio have steering wheel controls? if so do they light up and work? if not the colck spring is bad. or theres a dirty plug under the seat, or under the dash by the obd2 port. any yellow plugs to see are air bag related. or the air bag module under the pass side front seat and carpet could be bad.

the abs light, check for play in all 4 wheels lugs tight jack it up and grab the top of the tire and push and pull firmly, if you feel play that hub could be bad. if you cant find play or a bad wire, just have it scanned for codes at the local garage, its better then tossing parts at it.
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yes there is radio controls on the steering wheel and the radio is one of the few things that actually work. the horn wasn't working but when we changed the drivers side headlight we found the horn connector unplugged so now the horn works.
 


you can buy line and make your own for less. take out the old line, then make the new one to match the old. to do it right you'll need a double flair tool. your mechanic friend should have a clue about this.
 
Scottydoggs said:
you can buy line and make your own for less. take out the old line, then make the new one to match the old. to do it right you'll need a double flair tool. your mechanic friend should have a clue about this.
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originally that was the plan . for what ever reason ,i'll have to ask again he told me already but i wasn't really paying attention , he said he couldn't do it. maybe he doesn't have the double flare tool. is break line and fuel line the same ?
 
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its just the diameter thats different.

you can buy or rent the double flair tool. sears sells a good one for like 50 bucks irrc. harbor freight has a 20 dollar one, but it may not cut it on the larger firmer lines. may need a tube bender too. but those are cheap.

the words i cant do that should not be said. cutting out old lines and replacing them is the norm for a older car.
 


Scottydoggs said:
its just the diameter thats different.

you can buy or rent the double flair tool. sears sells a good one for like 50 bucks irrc. harbor freight has a 20 dollar one, but it may not cut it on the larger firmer lines. may need a tube bender too. but those are cheap.

the words i cant do that should not be said. cutting out old lines and replacing them is the norm for a older car.
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as i said , the guy isn't a certified mechanic and openly admits he has a lot to learn. i think he was hired to more or less assist the real mechanic (who quit and all his tools went with him), and was mostley given the less "technical" jobs like fluid changes and brake jobs.they don't do a bunch of "public" work. the owner is some kind of fed ex contractor or something and employees fed ex drivers and they work on fed ex labeled vehicles.
i took the car to him because i know he won't screw me like garages are well known to do. i worked at a firestone (not as a mechanic) many moons ago , and i seen first hand the ways they happily ripped customers off. everything from charging them for services they never did , to creating problems themselves just so they could charge customers to fix the problem they created (cutting hoses and such). i even seen them take still functioning shocks off a vehicle that they convinced the customer she needed new ones and cleaned and painted those used shocks and sold them as new to someone else. these crooks got an instant erection everytime a female customer came in. not because they thought they were attractive , it was because they were easy targets to run their cons on. lol
 
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its easy enough, if the two of you watch some youtube vids on how to use the double flair tool, im sure you'll both be like well damn! i can do that.

it really aint all that hard.

ive seen some shady stuff go down too, chain store garages can be the worst.
 
i'm pretty sure he does because he's replaced sections of blown out brake line on my 93 Z24. maybe they weren't the double flare. he's already ordered the fuel line anyway so it's all a moot point now. i've already begrudgingly accepted the fact that i'm a $160 poorer than i was when i woke up today.
 
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