It's a good thing no one that's posted on this thread is in politics...some of the debate skills just plain suck...but I guess when you have someone who sits at a computer and spouts off the same non sensical crap that I did...makes for, if at least..entertaining reading
Are you speaking for yourself? Because you've displayed the poorest, most nonsensical (it's one word, BTW) debating skills of all on this thread. Sure, "everyone has a right to their own opinion". However, not all opinions are created equal, nor do they all warrant respect, or carry the same probability of being right. You see, your arguments are based purely on emotion and hyperbole as opposed to logic and facts. You cannot form valid or respectable opinions based on such a foundation. You really need to do research when forming an opinion on a subject BEFORE you form the opinion. Allow me to elaborate on the evidence for your lack or research, knowledge and logic on this subject, and why they render your opinion invalid (yes, there IS such a thing as an invalid opinion).
- You asked the incredibly elementary question earlier of whether or not Cadillac and Buick are sold under the same brands overseas. Are you serious? #1 If you do not know the answer to this very simple question already, you probably shouldn't be forming an opinion on this subject. #2 Even if you didn't know this before, it would have taken you a couple seconds to find the answer. Not doing so shows that you're not interested in doing RESEARCH BEFORE FORMING AN OPINION.
- You also said earlier that '04 - '08 GPs are "as popular as ever" in your area. For starters, I would like to see the evidence for that. Secondly, even if it's true, you're speaking for the small sample of YOUR area. That does not mean the same holds true for the rest of the nation. Lastly, even IF it holds true, and holds true for the whole nation, that has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand. For the millionth time, Pontiac is ONLY concerned with NEW CAR SALES! No one involved in a business that sells new merchandise gives a damn about how popular their items are USED! They don't get a penny from the used sales. The fact remains that THE ENTIRE LINE UP OF PONTIACS SOLD POORLY! Yes, this includes your precious GPs! Resale value speaks volumes for popularity, and the FACTS seem to suggest the direct opposite of your claims of GP popularity vs. its competitors (all stats courtesy of Yahoo! Autos, Edmunds and MotorTrend):
2008 Pontiac GP GXP
MSRP $29k
NATIONAL avg resale $13,500
About 55% loss
2008 Pontiac G8 GT
MSRP $29k
Ntnl avg resale $20k
About 31% loss
2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6
MSRP $28k
Ntnl avg resale $16,600
About 40% loss
2008 Toyota Camry XLE V6
MSRP $28k
Ntnl avg resale $16,400
About 41% loss
As you can see, the GP is getting its ass kicked by the competition in resale value. Again, that is because the mass public thinks of Pontiacs (or anything GM, for that matter) as being absolute garbage. They were not willing to buy them new, and they sure as hell aren't going to pay much for them used. They're more popular than ever? Any car that looses MORE THAN 50% of its value in 4 short years is anything but popular. Sounds more like a car people don't want to touch with a 10' pole. Compare this to the G8 GT which has only lost 31% of its value in 4 years (crushing even the imports value retention), and you'll begin to see the value placed on quality of fit and finish, materials used, paint, overall performance refinement, etc. So again, as you can see, your random opinions don't seem to hold much merit when the facts come to light.
- You rambled on about your opinion of what led to Oldsmobiles demise. What's ironic is your points also basically stated what led to Pontiacs demise. Poor quality paint and clear coats? Horrible fit and finish? Garbage plastics and "leather" used for interiors? Boring line up of cars?? HELLOOOO! What do you think has been the formula for GM cars in general? The Alero was a cheaper version of the Grand Am?? And what, a Grand Am is "driving excitement"? A well done, refined automobile? It was also junk from a quality standpoint, as was all of the Pontiac line up the last couple decades save for the G8, attributing GREATLY to the public perception that Pontiacs suck. And yes, the actual STATS showed that Pontiac and Olds were neck and neck as far as sales. They debated back and forth for some time before finally deciding that it was going to be Olds that they killed off. You'd know all this if you were actually a GM nerd like many of us, and not just spouting random opinions based on nothing.
- Pontiac was on the verge of shutdown several times within the last 3 decades. On their 75th anniversary website (as well as the book), it flat out stated that the introduction of the 1983 Pontiac 6000 STE single handedly saved the company by boosting sales by being the first Pontiac to offer performance and amenities on par with the expensive Euro contemporaries (thus the numbered nameplate). The Fiero came along and pushed it again by offering something outside the box. As the sales for both those started dropping off in the late '80s, the Grand Prix came along and once again boosted sales for a while. Their was a small boost again from the introduction of the GP restyle in '97, but again, things were looking dismal for Pontiac after 2000. The G6 was going to be the 6000 (6G?) reborn. A European style numbered nameplate to replace the terrible reputation Grand Am which tried to be more competitive in the market. Again, the small boost it presented was very short lived. Finally, Pontiac ran out of saviors. Again, this is all *COMMON KNOWLEDGE* to true GM enthusiasts who keep up with something more than what size pulley they should throw on their L67.
- You stated "Regardless of the amount of people who are on this thread that can afford to buy a new car is irrelevant, those people who can go write a check for a new car every six months are not involved in this web forum." How is that irrelevant? Outside of enthusiasts on message boards like this, who gives a damn that Pontiac is gone? Who's complaining about it? Again, you point to people driving old ass, worthless Pontiacs until the wheels fall off as evidence that the brand has a following. Now THAT'S irrelevant to new car sales, because even when those people go to buy another car and "stick with Pontiac forever", way more often than not, they'll be buying another USED Pontiac, which doesn't do Pontiac a bit of good. Easy way to debunk your claim: If the Pontiac following is really as big as you're making it out to be, how come new car sales were so horrible for Pontiac? BTW, check out my sig. I've owned nothing BUT Pontiacs (8 in all), some of which have not only been the rarest Pontiacs made, but the rarest GMs in general, and even when I move on from current GTP, I plan on getting an extremely clean, very low mileage G8 GT. But again, case in point, I would not have bought a NEW Pontiac.
Bottom line is I hated seeing Pontiac go as much as the next enthusiast. I've been a GM fanatic since well before I started driving, especially the Pontiacs. The Pontiac display was my #1 destination at the Chicago Auto Shows, and I'm known as an authority on the AWD 6000s, a car most people don't even know exists. However, regardless of all this, even I know damn well that to sit there and say GM was dumb for getting rid of a very slow selling brand was stupid is nothing short of an emotionally charged statement. From a business standpoint, it makes absolute sense that Pontiac was the division to get the Axe (as well as Saturn). I'm sure it crushed a LOT of GM Corp employees, too. There are a great many of them who were very passionate about the brand. But business is business, and to keep a branch that's sinking to the bottom of the ocean tied to your ankle instead of cutting it loose.....now THAT'S stupid.
I think this thread should just be killed, and erased..nothing but a bunch of hot air and wasted time...time that could have been spent with our families..spent jerking away an argument over a dead iconic car make...I'm glad we can all be grown up...
Again, showing how you lack critical thinking skills, and how oblivious you are to your own actions. Let me get this straight. YOU revived this "waste of time" debate by bumping a thread which hadn't been commented on in over a month with only your 2nd post on this site. Every single one of YOUR posts on this site since then was made on said thread. YOU keep going back and forth with your regurgitation of the same uneducated (on the subject), ignorant opinions over and over again instead of learning and understanding why your arguments are illogical. Now YOU, a noob with less than 10 posts (again, all except 1 of which are in this thread you hate so much) are suggesting that not only the thread be killed, but erased? If spending the 3 or 4 minutes the average comment takes to post with your family is so important to you, why don't you heed your own advice instead of incessantly coming back to this waste of time thread?
