How often should i chg sc oil?

[Zef_66]

Also this "misting" property your talking about that the SC oil does, if the rotor packs are spinning 10-12k then the gears are going so fast the oil will be picked up and thrown around the snout so much that it will lubricated everything without the need for "misting". The fluid also fills up to the middle of the gears so half of them are already submerged, positive lubrication there.

My guess on the misting is that the oil needs to be thin so as to not create a HP loss or create excessive heat. And because of this viscosity, it will fly off the gears when running 10-15k RPMs. So having the oil mist basically means that the oil is getting suspended in the air inside the snout. Kinda like water particles suspended in air makes fog. This allows the thin, fragile gears inside the snout to still be lubricated from the oil mist inside the snout.

Again, not a concrete explanation of it. But it makes sense in my mind.

 

[matt5112]

Matt has changed his post before your response appeared.

 

[matt5112]

Also, I see that the supercharger oil has copper passivators in it, whatever they are

In the context of corrosion, passivation is the spontaneous formation of a hard non-reactive surface film that inhibits further corrosion. This layer is usually an oxide or nitride that is a few nanometers thick.

Hmm...

Also this "misting" property your talking about that the SC oil does, if the rotor packs are spinning 10-12k then the gears are going so fast the oil will be picked up and thrown around the snout so much that it will lubricated everything without the need for "misting". The fluid also fills up to the middle of the gears so half of them are already submerged, positive lubrication there.

When two gears turn, the fluid will be picked up and will hardly cover the bottom of the gears.

Make a hard left turn and you'll have even lower levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktuHbGcpJfM&NR=1

Weight of oil is not the only property important.

I agree, hence editing my post before you had a chance to respond.

However it appears I was not quick enough.

Two things to consider. One if the misting properties of the oil. As I mentioned before, the supercharger oil will mist and lubricate more effectively than the motor oil which is designed not to do this.

So the snout has two non-helical gears, two bearings for the snout shaft, and two rotor pack bearings.

The s/c fluid has to provide lubrication for all of these components.

If it misted, it would be akin to foaming, and not lubricate the four ball bearings also sharing this lubrication system.

Second, the expansion of the supercharger oil is not to nothing. This is important because the supercharger snout is a closed system. The motor oil will expand much more as the temps increase can can cause problems with your seals. I didn't remember about this one until I looked at the Nye sheet.

If you lower the delta T, that would limit expansion.

Higher viscosity index means more consistent viscosity.

The 0W-20 exhibits a higher VI than the GM fluid.

A very simple concept to poke at is this: Friction turns into heat and sound energy.

If you use a different fluid and you notice lower temps, you have successfully reduced friction.

This reduces wear and increases mechanical efficiency.

See: more power, longer lasting components.

I have taken the nose off the supercharger to replace the coupler, but I haven't dismantled the nose on one these superchargers yet. At the end of the nose, isn't that a breather, not a bolt? So should it matter to the seals about expansion, maybe to the gears for clearance it still does, but I wouldn't think for the seals because of the breather.

Its a plastic plug.

Akin to a body push pin.

If it wasn't sealed, the whole warning of "if you open when hot, you will be sprayed" wouldn't exist.

The "breather" would release the pressure and that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Zef_66]

Hmm...

When two gears turn, the fluid will be picked up and will hardly cover the bottom of the gears.

Make a hard left turn and you'll have even lower levels.

‪Simulating Prescribed Motion of a Gear with FLOW-3D‬‏ - YouTube



I agree, hence editing my post before you had a chance to respond.

However it appears I was not quick enough.



So the snout has two non-helical gears, two bearings for the snout shaft, and two rotor pack bearings.

The s/c fluid has to provide lubrication for all of these components.

If it misted, it would be akin to foaming, and not lubricate the four ball bearings also sharing this lubrication system.



If you lower the delta T, that would limit expansion.

Higher viscosity index means more consistent viscosity.

The 0W-20 exhibits a higher VI than the GM fluid.

A very simple concept to poke at is this: Friction turns into heat and sound energy.

If you use a different fluid and you notice lower temps, you have successfully reduced friction.

This reduces wear and increases mechanical efficiency.

See: more power, longer lasting components.



Its a plastic plug.

Akin to a body push pin.

If it wasn't sealed, the whole warning of "if you open when hot, you will be sprayed" wouldn't exist.

The "breather" would release the pressure and that wouldn't be an issue.

Again, I will point out that it doesn't matter to me what you use. You can pour in ketchup and use that. It doesn't matter because you have enough sense to look at the application and make a sound judgement. If it isn't what I would make, that isn't a big deal.

But going back to the beginning of the thread, it was recommended to the OP to use motor oil. I am pointing out that none of here are lubrication engineers, we didn't design the supercharger, nor do we have any clue about anything. We are just guessing. So to guess and then turn around and make a recommendation to someone without much automotive knowledge to use a fluid totally different from what is recommended by the OEM is just wrong in my opinion. We are talking about a repair that could cost someone hundreds of dollars and people are making a recommendation to use motor oil because it saves $10. Just not a good approach in my opinion.

Again, we can debate this stuff all we want. But for the sake of this thread and helping out those who don't have much knowledge about cars, I am simply trying to point out that the recommendation that was made was not a good one.

Also, TSB from the dealer and word of mouth from garage techs, here is what the manufacturer of the supercharger says about oil changes and the recommended fluid:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/PerformanceProducts/Products/Superchargers/FAQ/

Q: I’ve decided I need to change the oil in my supercharger. How do I do this?
A: If you do want to change the oil there is one fill/drain plug on the front face of the front cover. It will probably be an Allen type plug. You will have to suction out the oil using a syringe or other method before replacing with new oil. Fill levels are dependent on application. For aftermarket units, please consult the aftermarket partner company that produced that specific kit. For OEM units, please see the list below or email [email protected]. New oil can be obtained from any GM or Ford service parts facility, or from one of the Eaton aftermarket supercharger partner companies or remanufacturers. Please make sure you do NOT use any other type of oil, including synthetic motor oils. These will cause failure.

 

[TLSheff]

But going back to the beginning of the thread, it was recommended to the OP to use motor oil. I am pointing out that none of here are lubrication engineers, we didn't design the supercharger, nor do we have any clue about anything. We are just guessing. So to guess and then turn around and make a recommendation to someone without much automotive knowledge to use a fluid totally different from what is recommended by the OEM is just wrong in my opinion. We are talking about a repair that could cost someone hundreds of dollars and people are making a recommendation to use motor oil because it saves $10. Just not a good approach in my opinion...
...Also, TSB from the dealer and word of mouth from garage techs, here is what the manufacturer of the supercharger says about oil changes and the recommended fluid:
FAQ for Superchargers

I can understand your point that we don't want someone to do something that can jeopardize the safety of their vehicle, but the fact remains this is a GM recommendation, and tested and sucessful so far by multiple people on this forum. What your saying is that we should NOT tell people to do this because since it isn't proven to work by "professionals" it shouldn't be referred on to others.
If that is the case, we need to stop posting about mods in general, tops swaps on NA motors, Engine kit re-wires, etc...

THATS WHAT PEOPLE ARE HERE FOR!!!

To find out easier things that WORK on these cars.

/thread

 

[matt5112]

Magnuson tech support recommends their fluid only due to the fact that it is 100% synthetic and closely resembles an SAE 10 oil.

No other reasons were stated by the tech I spoke with on the phone.

He also claimed a 99 thousand mile life for the oil.

Also suggested Ford and GM s/c fluid as suitable fluids.

Asked about motor oil, was told no because their fluid is 100% synthetic.

http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGui...alvolinePremiumConventionalMotorOilSAE10W.php

Oil Viscosity:
cSt at 40°C 38.7
cSt at 100°C 6.5

Viscosity Index: 120

Thats even thinner yet again.

I guess calling Eaton is next?

Another 10W oil:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ctg.aspx

SAE Viscosity Grade 10W
ISO Viscosity Grade 32
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100° C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 7.1
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40° C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 41.3
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 133

Since ISO 32 might be similar to 10W

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aw.aspx

VK 100°C cSt - ASTM D-445 7.3
VK 40°C cSt - ASTM D-445 32
Viscosity Index - ASTM D-2270 205

Heres yet another option: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/pch.aspx

 

[Zef_66]

I can understand your point that we don't want someone to do something that can jeopardize the safety of their vehicle, but the fact remains this is a GM recommendation, and tested and sucessful so far by multiple people on this forum. What your saying is that we should NOT tell people to do this because since it isn't proven to work by "professionals" it shouldn't be referred on to others.
If that is the case, we need to stop posting about mods in general, tops swaps on NA motors, Engine kit re-wires, etc...

THATS WHAT PEOPLE ARE HERE FOR!!!

To find out easier things that WORK on these cars.

/thread

It was a recommendation 20 years ago by GM, not the people who actually make the superchargers. If you want to know what is 100% recommended replacement in these units, click the link above. That is the only oil that I have ever found recommended by the manufacture.

Again, if you want to run something else, that is fine. But when someone that doesn't want to mod their car, doesn't want to change it, just wants it to last for a long time, ask if there is anything better, the responses given are not the best responses. If someone wants to make their car faster, we usually tell them to read the modding guide which details the chances you take when changing your car from stock.

Again, I don't have a problem if you want to start a thread and discuss the topic of finding a better supercharger fluid and do your own independent tests with your own equipment. I would gladly read, follow along, and contribute where I could. But this thread was asking for a better replacement, and in my mind, and as I have tried to show in this thread, there is none known at this point.

Magnuson tech support recommends their fluid only due to the fact that it is 100% synthetic and closely resembles an SAE 10 oil.

Magnuson doesn't make the superchargers. Eaton does.

 

[matt5112]

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/SuperchargerOil.pdf

Interesting....

And redline has apparently suggested to SC guys to use their power steering fluid.

 

[Zef_66]

I guess calling Eaton is next?

Here is a thread on the other forum where a guy called Eaton:

ClubGP Message Forum troubleshooting

I received a call back from eaton today and found out that the Key part (base) of the oil is the Key, Ester. The Ester sticks better to metal parts which is essential at high speed parts lubrication. He did also mention that synthetic 10W-30 etc. will work but not long... I also asked him about the NYE lubricants 605 SC oil, and he said that they make the oil for them(Eaton) and GM... you can find the link in a prev. post if you are interested.

 

[RegalGS98s]

Using a different oil to save a few bucks is nice, but it's changed or topped off so seldom, the money shouldn't really be an issue. The minimum 20-30 degree temperature drop Blue says after using the Mobil 1 OW-20 instead I'm interested in though. Since heat translates to extra wear and less HP.

 

[Zef_66]

Using a different oil to save a few bucks is nice, but it's changed or topped off so seldom, the money shouldn't really be an issue. The minimum 20-30 degree temperature drop Blue says after using the Mobil 1 OW-20 instead I'm interested in though. Since heat translates to extra wear and less HP.

I would be interested to. I understand the concept that heat comes from friction. But do an actual test. Don't just tell everyone it keeps it 20-30 degrees cooler, but then come to find out that was determined just be putting your hand on it after driving.

We all know how hot these engine bays get. I mean, I can't even put my hand on the dogbones after my drive home from work. Should I put some of this miracle cooling synthetic motor oil on my dogbones?

Do an actual test over several similar driving times and conditions with an accurate way of measuring the temperature, then I will be interested in your results.

 

[matt5112]

Note the ester base fluid is corrosive to plastic, and is designed for a non-maintenance system.

Note my link from KB which suggests motor oil yet a 12 000 mile oil change interval.

I'm in the process of collecting temperature data as we speak.

 

[tcman49]

I changed my supercharger fluid after 75K miles because I was getting some whine. I went to the dealer, got two bottles for like $12 and changed it out myself, whine has calmed down a lot.

Yes it smells, just use a cheap $1 squirt bottle to reverse syphon out the old fluid and just pour the new fluid in, make sure the engine is cool.

TC

 

[Zef_66]

Note the ester base fluid is corrosive to plastic, and is designed for a non-maintenance system.

Note my link from KB which suggests motor oil yet a 12 000 mile oil change interval.

I'm in the process of collecting temperature data as we speak.

I always put the used SC fluid in a plastic bottle. Not sure why, but I have always done it. Hasn't eaten through the plastic in 5 years.

But in case you didn't know, eaton and KB are not the same thing. They are two totally different manufactures of supercharges and what one recommends for their design, the other may not. If case you didn't know.

Edit:
Also, if you are interested in educating yourself, read up on esters, which is what GM supercharger fluid is:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272

 

[matt5112]

http://www.nyelubricants.com/lubenotes/Lubenote_SinteredBearings.pdf

Ester-based oils may adversely affect some plastics, such as ABS, polycarbonates, and polyphenylene oxides. If compatibility questions arise, contact Nye Lubricants prior to lubricant selection.

In hind sight, perhaps a different word would have been more fitting.

SAE 50W is much more viscous than 10W and is understandable considering they are built to different tolerances.

Note GM doesn't recommend changing the S/C fluid.

That is because this ester based fluid is designed as a lube for life solution.

If someone wishes to switch to a non lube for life system in aims of improving performance, that is their prerogative.

A similar issue arises with spark plugs.

Iridium is the factory solution. A long life product.

Copper is the modder's solution. A short life, higher performance product.

 

[matt5112]

First test:

89* ambient, GM fluid, put in this year, hardly any miles on it.

ECT 199
snout 171
case 160
core 147

Delta T snout: 82

Second test, 85 ambient, mobil 1 AFE 0W-20.

ECT 197
Snout 165
Case 150

Delta T snout: 80

Dunno how you consider 165 still touchable.

Both runs after doing a 10 minute drive which combines city driving, being stuck in traffic, second and first gear pulls and cruising at 50 mph.

 

[fubar569]

the interesting part is it did drop temps an appreciable margin...

...enough to possibly risk life of the SC assembly however? no...

we would need an extended test documenting wear. 2 blowers, fresh parts, 2 different oils, run, disassemble, inspect, oil analysis, etc.

 

[TLSheff]

the interesting part is it did drop temps an appreciable margin...

...enough to possibly risk life of the SC assembly however? no...

we would need an extended test documenting wear. 2 blowers, fresh parts, 2 different oils, run, disassemble, inspect, oil analysis, etc.

8 months myself, change every other oil change with Mobil 1 5-30

2-3 others running over a year doing this. One of them may be able to pull the snout and take some pictures but I imagine if they aren't busted by now or making some awful racket, everything is still in good condition :th_thumbsup-wink:

 

[matt5112]

Those numbers actually suggested a negligible difference.

2* F is well within the margin of error of my temp gun.

Thus GM fluid is the better choice due to longevity while providing the same performance.

 

[Zef_66]

Those numbers actually suggested a negligible difference.

2* F is well within the margin of error of my temp gun.

Thus GM fluid is the better choice due to longevity while providing the same performance.

Thank you for doing the tests and providing the results.