Clutches for 4T65E-HD rebuild: BW, Raybestos, or Alto Red Eagle (or other)?

[agrazela]

Considering rebuilding a 4T65E-HD transmission for a topswapped, mildly cammed, lightly modded, daily driver (with the occasional track run). Expecting somewhere around 250-275 whp.

Would go with a GT 3.29 35/35 stock gemini gearset and stock GT 245mm torque converter.

I'm considering various Master rebuild kits (i.e., Transtec Overhaul kit plus clutches / steels / bands / etc.), ranging from about $170 to $220. If I go this way, should I go with Borg Warner, Raybestos, or Alto Red Eagle clutches? And why?
(Also, should I avoid any of these?)

Alternatively, should I get a Transtec Overhaul kit and and select individual clutchpacks and bands? If so, which ones?
(Note: I would want to keep the total cost of putting together the equivalent of a Master kit under around $250, maybe $275 tops)

 

[2Fast4U]

We sell the parts you need I'll have Dave answer the questions you have but here is a link to our parts page. 4T65E Parts

 

[Trannyman95]

All of the kits that I use are generally Transtec gasket kits or sometimes Toledo Trans gasket kits which are pretty typically OE replacement kits. I only use OE Borg Warner replacement clutches. They last the longest and give the best overall shift feel for normal driving. I have torn many 100K+ mile transmissions apart and the clutches still look like new, that speaks for itself. Most burnt clutch problems are because of a leak in the system, bad malfunctioning accumulator system, bad EPC, incorrect tune. With proper modifications the BWs hold up great on modded cars. There are other options just like you have found, Alto is a good clutch and Im not a huge fan of Raybestos clutches other than the Z-packs for 3rd in this trans but it is money you can save for other stuff. I well a complete master kit with BW frictions for $159.95 . Keep in mind a master kit does not include bands and arent part of any master kit unless they were added to it and its not always necessary to replace them but you wont know until the trans is apart.

 

[agrazela]

Thanks for the info Trannyman. This trans has 106k miles.

My Reverse band looks really good I think, even better looking than the Forward band:

The 2-1 Manual band had a "stripe" in the center and a sort of "bevel" worn out of one edge. I didn't get a pic of that, but I can. Have you ever seen that? I'm thinking of replacing it; infact I'm leaning toward replacement of all the bands, just to be safe.

The 4th steels looked pretty heat-soaked:

The input and second steels had a few small spots, but not like the third.

All the input, second and 4th fiber plates looked pretty good to my untrained eye.

The 3rd clutches were badly coned:

And had some "chips" missing from the friction material:

Apparently that's a trouble area, eh?

 

[Trannyman95]

Pretty typical except for third, must have got used a lot under WOT and was all stock! Your 4th steels are also very common and a reason I dont like Raybestos clutches especially in that area. A few years ago BW changed the design of them and added a lot more grooves to them. This keeps more fluid on the clutch as it is a lube problem that is causing the "leapard spots" on the steels and you dont see the problem near as much on the newer trans's

 

[agrazela]

Trannyman, thanks much for the info.

Keep in mind a master kit does not include bands and arent part of any master kit unless they were added to it and its not always necessary to replace them but you wont know until the trans is apart.

Crazy question, but if I post pics of my bands, could you tell me if they are OK?
Is there a thickness spec, maybe?

 

[Trannyman95]

The bands are going to be burnt or they arent, they really dont wear and if good you will still see the ink printing in the fiber. More often then not the band isnt burnt BUT where the apply lugs are brazed on they will break or tear the braze off on higher mileage bands. Carefully inspect the brazed area and look for cracks, if in question replace them! The manual 1-2 coast band is a coin toss. Honestly the band doesnt get used unless you pull the shifter into 2 or 1, and you shouldnt do that unless you need it for engine breaking, NOT manual WOT shifting! If that band is slightly burnt or has a dark line in it then I wouldnt worry about it, but they are pretty cheap if you would rather replace it. I always bend the new ones open a bit to prevent drag which will also cause the dark line and can also slow the car down at the track

 

[SyntheticShield]

Holy cow Trannyman, you really need like a booklet or something that has all these wonderful rebuild tips. By golly I would pay for the thing. Even some videos, Id have my checkbook out pen in hand just waiting for you to tell me a price.

How am I supposed to keep track of all this stuff, LOL

 

[Trannyman95]

LOL thats what the forums are for of course!

 

[agrazela]

The bands are going to be burnt or they arent, they really dont wear and if good you will still see the ink printing in the fiber. More often then not the band isnt burnt BUT where the apply lugs are brazed on they will break or tear the braze off on higher mileage bands. Carefully inspect the brazed area and look for cracks, if in question replace them! The manual 1-2 coast band is a coin toss. Honestly the band doesnt get used unless you pull the shifter into 2 or 1, and you shouldnt do that unless you need it for engine breaking, NOT manual WOT shifting! If that band is slightly burnt or has a dark line in it then I wouldnt worry about it, but they are pretty cheap if you would rather replace it. I always bend the new ones open a bit to prevent drag which will also cause the dark line and can also slow the car down at the track

Well, the brazed areas are all sound and crack free on all three bands.

Here's the friction area:

Forward Band:

Reverse Band:

Manual Band:

Reverse band looks pretty good, based on what you said to look for.

Manual band probably OK; only a stripe in the center.

Forward band...what do you think? Should I be worried about that one big dark stripe? Or the fact that the three segments are not equal as regards the rub area/stripe?

 

[Trannyman95]

I would replace the forward band and use the other two as they look ok and again the manual band isnt that critical since you likely wont be using it.

 

[3800seV2.0]

Trannyman, do the Borg Warner clutches use a "woven lining" in our 3rd pack?

Seems like the guys putting big HP through 4L60E's have issues toasting the 3-4 pack even with Alto Reds and Z-Paks, but the BW frictions seem to survive just fine.

I'm thinking this woven material absorbs more fluid and aids in the apply.

 

[Trannyman95]

The only woven material is in the torque converters for the lockup clutch. Borg Warner made the original High Energy "green" friction material and is factory issue friction material in the 4L60E for the 2-4 band and 3-4 clutches. Even when slipping badly they handle heat much better than standard frictions. I like the Alto red lining for certain apps but doesnt seem to have the longevity in trade off for better bite and wont take slippage too well as it tends to burn easy if the trans isnt set up right. The HE friction material takes quite a bit of abuse though I found it doesnt bite as well as the Red lining. It was a great addition for OE use as it can provide very high reliability with a smooth shift. Borg Warner came out with a thinner 3-4 friction for performance use and when set up properly you can go from the factory 6 frictions to 9 frictions in this pack and it makes a huge difference in shift quickness as this has always been the weak link in those transmissions. The Raybestos Z-pack uses single sided friction plates like stock 4T65E 3rd frictions and the advantage is to allow for much better heat dissappation. I have never used these setups as I have never had a problem with the BW frictions so I dont have any experience with them.

 

[3800seV2.0]

Well, I was just doing some reading over at LS1Tech, and one of the tranny builders over there had this to say:

Your sig states that you have a 9 clutch tranny. I am going to suppose that this refers to the 3/4 clutches. if so, then I would guess that this is the Alto Red Eagle commercial pack. I do not run those because we found them to be inferior to the Borg Warner High Energy clutches.

The Alto clutches are a paper material and the BW's are a woven / fiber material. This is important to that clutch pack because it sees high loads at high rpm's. I would not doubt that you 3/4 clutches are showing signs of failure at this point. And that is why your transmission is exhibiting symptoms.

I do not agree with the Alto clutches. IMHO (and many other builders) they are inferier to a woven clutch like Borg Warner High Energy clutches.

4l60E Upgrades....help/suggestions needed. - LS1TECH
Rebuilt trans Problems - LS1TECH

But whatever, I guess I'm just a material science nerd

 

[Trannyman95]

Gotcha, I have heard many different descriptions of them but they arent woven. Woven clutch lining looks like Carbon Fiber with the "weaving" patern of the material. The HE frictions are just a fiber type lining that is consistant in appearance.