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What did GM do wrong with our cars?

JbrownGTP

JbrownGTP

New member
So i was reading the newest import tuner today that my buddy picked up and in it they modded a 2009 eclipse with the 3.8l v6. Bone stock it put 250horses and 250torque to the wheels. With the addition of an intake, headers and cat-back it put 290horses and 286torque to the wheels. So my question is why the hell can my SUPERCHARGED 3.8 liter put just a little over 200 to the wheels? Idk it kinda makes me mad that all of these new naturally aspirated engines are putting more to the wheels than my supercharged engine can. Anybody agree or am i being a little overdramatic?
 


because its 09 and there making everything na to get good gas milage and still have sum good hp.... the G8 V6 makes more hp out of a 3.6l than the gtp's 3.8l sc which is sad but i guess if they really wanted to they could of up the hp more on the gtp by changing sum stuff. like the cobalt ss that lil 4banger sc or turbo puts more than the gtp maybe not the sc but close but its a lil car and thats a reason why its a bit faster. i think the gtp would of been sweet with 295hp stock not to far off from the gxp
 


Hmm... Well, let's look at this. The 3800 is a pushrod V6. 2 valves per cylinder, no adjustable valve timing, and 90* requiring a balance shaft. The Mitsu's 3.8 (just guessing, but going off the norms for V6s these days) is probably DOHC (4 valves per cylinder), variable intake and exhaust valve timing, and is probably around 60* making it smoother, which is less power lost to vibrations. It may even have direct injection, but I'm not sure.

Then, take into account that in general the 3800 Series II is using 1996 technology, with a limited engine management system. Modern ECUs from all the manufacturers these days have ten times the processing power and around ten to twenty times the memory for storing more tables with more detailed values. The PCM for the 3800 Series II has 512kB of programmable memory to store calibration tables for the engine and transmission. The ECU for my boxer engine in the STI has 16MB available of programmable memory and only needs to control the engine. It makes 305HP (2 more than the 5.3L LS4 V8) out of a 2.5L turbo 4-cylinder boxer.

The 3800 in general is fighting about 14 years of progress since its last major refresh. It's a great engine that I will always love, just for its underdog-ness and reliability, but things change and you can't expect it to keep up with today's cutting edge technology.
 
Not to bring up my GTI again, but from factory my N/A 2.8L with only 12 valves puts down 170 hp to the wheels and 180 lb/ft, and that engine design is from the early 1990's and wasn't changed until 2002 when when they put in 24 valves and it got 200 hp and 210 lb/ft. The GM 3.8 is a bulletproof engine, but doesn't make very much power for the displacement, N/A or supercharged, but the 3.8 is a pushrod engine, unlike the eclipse or GTI.
 
The series 2 3.8L from 10 years ago still makes 20 ft. lbs. of torque more than the 3.8L 2009 eclipse motor... These cars aren't dyno queens, I've seen gtp's/regals pull on cars that have a 100whp advantage over them.
 
FoSHO99 said:
The series 2 3.8L from 10 years ago still makes 20 ft. lbs. of torque more than the 3.8L 2009 eclipse motor... These cars aren't dyno queens, I've seen gtp's/regals pull on cars that have a 100whp advantage over them.
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This is true. Something to be considered is how flat is the torque and power curves.
 


Yep, very true. Most Mitsu and Japanese engines don't come into good hp and tq until they reach the upper rpms and even then it seems to be a very limited torque curve. Although the new VVEL engines they are using in the Infinitis show promise. They almost resemble a pushrod engine with 90% of their peak torque available at 2400 rpm.
 
What did GM do wrong?
Well, they were a couple years too soon with the EV1 electric car that no one cared about. Then they focused their efforts on lobbying congress against fuel efficiency instead of developing modern engines like the foreign automakers. Hence why they made the 3.8L 10 years longer then they originally planned. And engines aside they gave the public 2 decades of pure crap (80s-90s), body cladding, and they tried to reinvent antifreeze all the while ruining the Pontiac nameplate and then when they turned Pontiac into American Holden everyone had pretty much abandoned Pontiac or GM altogether.
 
well since you asked what they did wrong.... they were concerned that americans didnt want rear wheel drive. so they stuck with what worked and kept the wbody. no intercooler under the blower is another mistake. cheap interiors are another notch on the list. the number reason GM did wrong was make the corvette the cream of the crop and not have anything faster hence the GNX vs Corvette battle of the 80's minus 2 cylinders, 10k cheaper and 3times as fast and its a buick!!!
 
PH04GTP said:
Yep, very true. Most Mitsu and Japanese engines don't come into good hp and tq until they reach the upper rpms and even then it seems to be a very limited torque curve. Although the new VVEL engines they are using in the Infinitis show promise. They almost resemble a pushrod engine with 90% of their peak torque available at 2400 rpm.
Click to expand...

That's what I like about the STI's boxer. Torque comes on as soon as the turbo spools (so about 3000RPM). Still has decent torque out of boost, even more than my L36 had stock.
 
Sabrewings said:
This is true. Something to be considered is how flat is the torque and power curves.
Click to expand...

Yup. Torque baby. From start to finish. Something crappy low tech American engines have always made in gobs. Something is just wrong when your torque curve doesn't start peaking until 4000 RPM. It should be fat by 2500.
 


JbrownGTP said:
So i was reading the newest import tuner today that my buddy picked up and in it they modded a 2009 eclipse with the 3.8l v6. Bone stock it put 250horses and 250torque to the wheels. With the addition of an intake, headers and cat-back it put 290horses and 286torque to the wheels. So my question is why the hell can my SUPERCHARGED 3.8 liter put just a little over 200 to the wheels? Idk it kinda makes me mad that all of these new naturally aspirated engines are putting more to the wheels than my supercharged engine can. Anybody agree or am i being a little overdramatic?
Click to expand...



Are you seriously comparing an old school GM 3800 Series 2 pushrod motor to a 3.8 DOHC motor in an Eclipse? You're joking, right? :th_laugh-pointup: Wow dude, You have ALOT to learn about cars (mechanics, motors, TQ, etc). LOL :th_laugh-lol2: I don't know everything and i'm not the smartest guy in the world but this is truely... i'm not going to even say it. Hopefully the others here have answered you questions and painted a good picture for you.

Good/True info though throughout this thread. I have nothing to add, the people have spoken...
 
Nope not joking, thats one of the reasons im on here is to learn more. So go ahead and laugh and watch how much i dont give a ****.
 
Idk it kinda makes me mad that all of these new naturally aspirated engines are putting more to the wheels than my supercharged engine can. Anybody agree or am i being a little overdramatic?
Click to expand...
You're being overdramatic:) To understand why the 3800 never went further than it did you need to look at the political infighting that was prevalent inside GMPT. GMPT was controlled and ran by "Chevy" people and the 3800 was a "Buick" motor. Therefore it was not going to be allowed to progress to a point where it would encroach upon the Chevy motors. There was plans for a Series IV 3800 that would put out 300 HP in non-supercharged form while retaining ULEV status with nothing more than a steel crank, some cleanup on the induction side, and a retuned PCM. However, that was encroaching on the Chevy small block's territory and it was squashed. There were also plans for four valve heads which never got approved for production. The people in charge of GMPT at the time were still competing with other Divisions of GM (The "Old" days) instead of competing with the overall market (Reality).
That's changed now as evidenced by the 3.6L DI.
 
in top of all that these ppl are talking about.. add different engine materials.. instead of using iron they are using aluminum.. and other kind of materials that makes an engine more effective..
 
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