Not saying the trim will not affect the wot AFR but I'm saying that you can't tune wot with trims the only time trims are good is at a commanded AFR of 14.2ish to 15ish O2 sensors in are cars are no good outside that AFR if that makes sense. Yes your trim carried over from closed loop will change your wot AFR but you can not tune wot with trims endless shooting for an AFR above at wot pretty sure engine wouldn't like 14.2afr wot just saying
Just got wideband installed 10.8 afr
- Thread starter suitercrew
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Not saying the trim will not affect the wot AFR but I'm saying that you can't tune wot with trims the only time trims are good is at a commanded AFR of 14.2ish to 15ish O2 sensors in are cars are no good outside that AFR if that makes sense. Yes your trim carried over from closed loop will change your wot AFR but you can not tune wot with trims endless shooting for an AFR above at wot pretty sure engine wouldn't like 14.2afr wot just saying
Scottydoggs
Killa Bee
you change the commanded af ratio in the tune. mines set to 11.6 
i get what your saying, but you can still get by with out a wb.
i get what your saying, but you can still get by with out a wb.
Scottydoggs
Killa Bee
boy have i pulley dropped lol
lic tech what btw? if you say asa ill drop and cry......you guys have really fell of the mark. at least here. cant trust crap they do or say.
lic tech what btw? if you say asa ill drop and cry......you guys have really fell of the mark. at least here. cant trust crap they do or say.
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I fix cars for a living and build them lol but if everyone want keep listening to Scotty and don't VE tune your Grand Prix its not needed says Scotty until your 500km from home and maf fails lmfao and tune wot with trims don't need a AFR gauge to do that says Scotty lmfao I know I once listened to ppl just like Scotty cost me an engine using the trims to tune wot. And tune the VE table if your stock pully or 3.4 you can get by with the stock VE but y you have the software to fix it don't be left stranded with a failed maf tune VE.And get a wide band it will save your engine and your time.
Fivefingerdeathpunch
New member
Tuning the VE is a waste of time unless this is some really modded setup with big cam, huge injectors and so on. Ball parking it with a heavily modded setup will work.
Stock VE only goes to 140kpa anyway, if my MAF failed on pretty much a 100% MAF based car I wouldn't be hammering on it anyway.
Anything other than a 3800 you couldn't do that with, like LS engines those must have both tuned to have "mixed" VE/MAF working together correctly.
Stock VE only goes to 140kpa anyway, if my MAF failed on pretty much a 100% MAF based car I wouldn't be hammering on it anyway.
Anything other than a 3800 you couldn't do that with, like LS engines those must have both tuned to have "mixed" VE/MAF working together correctly.
Scottydoggs
Killa Bee
hey guess what? your free to waste your time ve tuning a car thats not worth ve tuning.....free country here. and being a mechanic does not make you a lic tuner.
every tuner manual ive read says to get the trims wot to zero. EVERY ONE. explain that? if your base tune is set up right theres not much left to tune.
and i did agree with you on most of what you said, so whats your problem? not every one is willing to buy a wb too. they are not cheap.
and just to be a dick, what about a caned zzp tunes, whos to say that crap is gonna be right, and even if you had a wb wtf you gonna do about it if you dont own a tuner? nothing,,,, and how many cars run zzp and overkill and so on canned tunes and they survive this mess. clearly not ve tuned are they? so put that in your pipe and smoke it up.
every tuner manual ive read says to get the trims wot to zero. EVERY ONE. explain that? if your base tune is set up right theres not much left to tune.
and i did agree with you on most of what you said, so whats your problem? not every one is willing to buy a wb too. they are not cheap.
and just to be a dick, what about a caned zzp tunes, whos to say that crap is gonna be right, and even if you had a wb wtf you gonna do about it if you dont own a tuner? nothing,,,, and how many cars run zzp and overkill and so on canned tunes and they survive this mess. clearly not ve tuned are they? so put that in your pipe and smoke it up.
Not to sure what to say as even with a 3.4 pully and untuned VE table my car ran like **** rich in most areas and very lean in others even for a limp home mode not saying you don't need the maf as you do because when unplugged acceleration enrichment isn't active not on mine anyways. But tune the VE makes a big difference on the cars drivability.The point is tune wot with a wide band AFR gauge as there is no way to tell your close to your camanded power enrichment with your trims.... And you choose what to do with VE as its the most un agreeable subject with 3800 I just wounder if it makes no dif at all y put it in dhp or hptuna software o right if you cam it it makes a difference but not if you run a stock cam I'm cunfuzed and ball park it sounds like a great idea hmmm just spent 10k on an engine ball park tune should be good... I am really sorry to be this rude but I don't agree
Scottydoggs
Killa Bee
like i said, your free to do what ever you like to your tune. and 10 grand in a engine for a car thats not worth 1/2 that? thats just not smart. you got gold plated internals? or you just buy zzp over priced parts?
i dont have a third of that in the cost of my car and its mods.
i dont have a third of that in the cost of my car and its mods.
Explain the trim thing no problem if your closed loop trims are 0 perfect then if you camanded a 12power enrichment but your actual AFR was 11 your trims at wot will still be 0 not -5% or what ever the difference from 12 AFR to 11 is if you don't believe me try it. But there's one problem the odds of your trims ever staying perfect 0 is far fetched impossible as weather changes and so on the hole reason for 02 sensors endless General Motors teaches roung.
Fivefingerdeathpunch
New member
I tuned my car for like 3 years with HP Tuners and never touch the stock VE with it. I did headers, intake, pulley drop and all the other jazz with no egr/cat etc etc. It ran perfect with only tuning the MAF sensor with my wideband.
Like you said, if you swap the cam or do anything further past that, then yeah sure the VE should be somewhat adjusted incase of MAF failure. Anything with stock cam doesn't need the VE changed because the pulley size makes no difference out of boost, it will vent all boost regardless of pulley size.
Like you said, if you swap the cam or do anything further past that, then yeah sure the VE should be somewhat adjusted incase of MAF failure. Anything with stock cam doesn't need the VE changed because the pulley size makes no difference out of boost, it will vent all boost regardless of pulley size.
10k was just the number I used as ppl do spend big money on thing. Just trying to make a point you can not accuratly to power enrichment with the trims no way no how you can make a geuss but that is it
Scottydoggs
Killa Bee
you said that 10 times already and we all agree on that point. but its not something everyone needs to have.
See I can totally agree but I would still recommend doing a VE tune even to a stock car just for fuel mileage alone in a maf fail situation as gm always sets there fail modes rich
And I know u have played with the VE only human but does the drivability not seem better with a tuned VE I think mine does big Time and no cam or anything crazy done
Fivefingerdeathpunch
New member
On all the LS engines that I've owned it makes a difference but that's a whole different ball game there.
Where I live with a 3800 it didn't change anything to me. I still got 30-31 freeway doing 65-70mph on long trips and it still got crap mpg around town like they all did. If I could get 16in the summer I was happy and winter was 10-12 with my 6 miles a day total commute.
Where I live with a 3800 it didn't change anything to me. I still got 30-31 freeway doing 65-70mph on long trips and it still got crap mpg around town like they all did. If I could get 16in the summer I was happy and winter was 10-12 with my 6 miles a day total commute.
Yea I have rufflie the same , but were I notice the difference is peddle response... The car seems more attached to my foot if that makes sense ?
wowitsfast
New member
im bored of this. scotty and ffdp have helped tons of members tune their junk all the time all seem happy. to boot they agree with you but most guys dont need to go that deep with the tune. my car runs Hella rich but IDC cuz its junk
Never said they didn't help,just trying to help provide good info like don't tune wot with trims,VE tune can help for sure in a maf fail witch is common on these cars. Not trying to be a dick just my opinion to make your car the best it can be yea it's cheap junk lol but hell of a lot better then most junk out there especially for a dad lol and I don't consider mine junk used and abused yes lol