Pulsing the turbocharger...

[jdredd]

hahahahaha seems no one is listening...is this just status quo? this is a different way to turbocharge, how is this difficult to understand? Is like telling me to go get a RWD when asking how to make a fwd platform faster...
99.9% of you use the constant pressure setup, it is wonderful but that is just one way?!!?

No one has shown me how getting a divided housing is too much work? or is been innovative dead?

I understand the idea behind it all.

But I like the KISS method for such things is all.

Like the idea of twin charging.......

Like when people said PLOGS wouldn't work and need tubular headers and this that and the other.... and plogs work just fine.

YES there can be some percentage gains going with certain things, but you increase complexity, costs, service, ect... I'll take the (random number generator) 10% hit in
power to have something that still works well, cheaper, easier to work on, and still gets the job done to runs 10s

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

I'm seriously without equal length primaries there really is no pulsing of the turbocharger unless you're looking to have split paired pulses which is essentially what the grand national/turbo regal lc2 ends up with with its under engine crossover.

VNT. Done

 

[jbunla]

• Pulse type turbocharger:

In pulse type turbocharger, the exhaust gas directly enters the turbine side and drives the turbine with the exhaust gas energy. The connection from the exhaust side of an engine is directly connected to the turbine side of a turbo charger. The pipe connections from the exhaust gas towards the turbine side are generally small in length and exhaust grouping is provided to prevent the blowback of gases from one cylinder to another.

• Constant pressure type turbocharger:

In constant pressure type turbocharger, the exhaust gases gets collected in a single exhaust gas reservoir, where the pressure is maintained constant so as to avoid any fluctuation in the exhaust gas energy pressure. The exhaust gas is introduced to the turbine side after maintaining the pressure inside the cylinder.




meh, turbo spools you go all that matters

lol thanks ItHurtz...i agree

I understand the idea behind it all.

But I like the KISS method for such things is all.

Like the idea of twin charging.......

Like when people said PLOGS wouldn't work and need tubular headers and this that and the other.... and plogs work just fine.

YES there can be some percentage gains going with certain things, but you increase complexity, costs, service, ect... I'll take the (random number generator) 10% hit in
power to have something that still works well, cheaper, easier to work on, and still gets the job done to runs 10s

Well your KISS method maybe another's headache...
How do you think innovations starts? one way is by ppl who go beyond the box right? I have used the word alternative and street, I have a fiero...I don't drag it but starting to get into road racing. It is still a street car by all standard and I am looking for a different approach. Not a 2 step, antilag, n2o...this particular method appears promising for what I want to do. I have not seen the complexity you speak of. Making log headers as short as possible going into a turbine with a dual housing; that is it!! you can run twin WG or one there is nothing really you guys have said besides to keep the status quo. I am not interested in running 10s and nothing wrong with that either, it is not my thing and I am building this stuff myself so I am not getting your position really!?!?

I'm seriously without equal length primaries there really is no pulsing of the turbocharger unless you're looking to have split paired pulses which is essentially what the grand national/turbo regal lc2 ends up with with its under engine crossover.

VNT. Done

??? I am not sure what you are saying/said?
I had a GN, it uses the constant type pressure setup not pulsing; but yes I have a divided housing at about 1.32a/r. I will definitely like to talk to a cam guy to see how to do a grind which is geared for an N/A motor

 

[16MustangVet]

x2986727275868275 on overcomplication good luck though.

 

[jbunla]

x2986727275868275 on overcomplication good luck though.

thanks for the well wishes,
can someone in here please tell me the overcomplication not one of you have mentioned it once besides just saying general stuff? This is the second page no generalization tell me what it is?
thanks

 

[Fivefingerdeathpunch]

But it is just a general statement that's true. It's extra work for really no gain at all if you could make it work.

Having the right cam and turbo size are going to get you the best throttle response, best spool, best feel with the car.

I also only mainly hear about the pulse style being used on big diesel engines, not on a small car motor.

Through things I've read before these few things come to mind.

Advantages
High available energy at turbine
Good performance at low speed and load
Good turbocharger acceleration

Disadvantages
Poor turbine efficiency with one or two cylinders per turbine entry
Poor turbine efficiency at very high ratings
Complex exhaust manifold with large numbers of cylinders
Possible pressure wave reflection problems (on some engines)

 

[Fivefingerdeathpunch]

This is also a good read and will explain more indepth about both systems. Take 10-15min to read pages 50-62 about turbocharging.

http://www.academia.edu/3407176/Turbocharged_Engines

 

[16MustangVet]

A good turbo with a lightweight turbine wheel would and cartridge bearings instead of journal bearings would throw most of this out the window too.

 

[koRnhead]

You will need a true equal length header set up to make that work correctly. It's not just as easy as making the front bank feed on me side of the housing and the back the other. I know what you're talking about. And it does decrease spool time. But unless you're going full road course/autocross racing. It's pretty pointless considering all the extra work involved. Kinda like doing all the work to twin charge something when a properly sized turbo will perform better.

 

[nocutt]

But it is just a general statement that's true. It's extra work for really no gain at all if you could make it work. Having the right cam and turbo size are going to get you the best throttle response, best spool, best feel with the car. I also only mainly hear about the pulse style being used on big diesel engines, not on a small car motor. Through things I've read before these few things come to mind.

Guys you cannot compare these two types of systems, except on the merit of what they actually provide for the enthusiast...both types of application will provide enough hp to crack the block...literally! The pT (pulse turbocharging) is especially good for street cars and road racing setups. HOWEVER if you have never driven in this setup, the advantages are actually beyond two-dimension explanation. I have to add their are two many complexities trying to pit this against the other...ultimately many of you are coming from the position of what you already know or think you may know...not going to work here as none of you actually have empirical data to make real comparisons. Getting the right turbo and the right cam is absolutely right, including the idea of getting light weight wheels...but again think of it as a DIFFERENT way to turbocharge. This method is actually nothing new btw... The car posted is my setup which I have been trying to keep under wraps, but have been using this setup about early 2005, before that in 1998 when I turbocharged the 3800 using the constant type pressure setup. I think I may know a thing or two about both systems, and I respectfully disagree with many comments opined on this string. There is really no which is better, I just find that with what I do (street driven, RR)...the pT offers more fun value and there is the sound. There is no real complexity because now there is a blue-print...again!! Arranging the firing-order per bank was the crux...complexity as suggested in the white paper provided is based on the firing order of a 8 cyl (or more, especially in the "V" configuration...) Also you do not need equal length headers...at least not a stockish platform for the street...your primaries should be short and dump into a common log...which goes into one of the turbine entry... The overwhelming point missed is the characteristics that make this setup work well when done right...the increased delta achieved between the exhaust valves and turbine wheel... HTHs JB...YGM!

 

[16MustangVet]

heres why this matters not one bit for an old 3800.........

THEY DONT REV HIGH RPM.

sure pulsing is plausable and i get it but look at all the people that have turboed 3800s before.

its over complicated and unnecessary.

now if your looking to use this for a road racing setup then lets retrack here step 1 throw away fwd w body car and start over lol......

if this is just for getting it to spool quicker use a smaller turbo these cars dont need more bottom end anyways.

 

[nocutt]

Complicated...? Ok that is a matter of perspective right...Unnecessary? yeah I am sure I heard that almost 20yrs ago...I mean to each their own right?

 

[koRnhead]

What's it like having all that time and money tied up in a w body RR car.....and then watching pretty much every car drive away from you? Lol

 

[jdredd]

lol thanks ItHurtz...i agree


Well your KISS method maybe another's headache...
How do you think innovations starts? one way is by ppl who go beyond the box right? I have used the word alternative and street, I have a fiero...I don't drag it but starting to get into road racing. It is still a street car by all standard and I am looking for a different approach. Not a 2 step, antilag, n2o...this particular method appears promising for what I want to do. I have not seen the complexity you speak of. Making log headers as short as possible going into a turbine with a dual housing; that is it!! you can run twin WG or one there is nothing really you guys have said besides to keep the status quo. I am not interested in running 10s and nothing wrong with that either, it is not my thing and I am building this stuff myself so I am not getting your position really!?!?




??? I am not sure what you are saying/said?
I had a GN, it uses the constant type pressure setup not pulsing; but yes I have a divided housing at about 1.32a/r. I will definitely like to talk to a cam guy to see how to do a grind which is geared for an N/A motor

Working on a turbo Fiero myself currently... fun times eh.

Go with what your heart desires. Hope you have good luck road warrior.

Tho nothing innovative about an old idea.... so you are more or less trying implementation ...

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

eh, with one bank always having two valves open/overlapping at least 30* of crank angle i still dont like logs, nice individual primary's and minimal reversion would make me much happier, especially if all the primarys are the same length and the pressure waves are a nice even form

ill agree that a divided hotside should have a divided path but there's not much of a point to that if you keep the area of the hotside constant.
beyond that going to a VNT is probably the best leap....but not much a point to that when we can make a .82 T3 perform so well with only minimal increase in drive delta up top near 7k.

our rotating assembly sucks for anything over 6k anyways...might as well build it for a nice flat Tq plateau

 

[jbunla]

Working on a turbo Fiero myself currently... fun times eh.

Go with what your heart desires. Hope you have good luck road warrior.

Tho nothing innovative about an old idea.... so you are more or less trying implementation ...

Good luck too, not sure if you are being funny about the road warrior comment?

What's it like having all that time and money tied up in a w body RR car.....and then watching pretty much every car drive away from you? Lol

Are you serious? who says that? RR is about improving your time? I think you guys are simply just talking now. Thanks for the advice *smh*

 

[nocutt]

Working on a turbo Fiero myself currently... fun times eh. Go with what your heart desires. Hope you have good luck road warrior. Tho nothing innovative about an old idea.... so you are more or less trying implementation ...

So can't we say this about what 99.9% of ppl are currently doing to the 3800 turbo simply an implementation of an old idea? Common guys I am not really sure where and why the ragging is coming from.

 

[nocutt]

eh, with one bank always having two valves open/overlapping at least 30* of crank angle i still dont like logs, nice individual primary's and minimal reversion would make me much happier, especially if all the primarys are the same length and the pressure waves are a nice even form ill agree that a divided hotside should have a divided path but there's not much of a point to that if you keep the area of the hotside constant. beyond that going to a VNT is probably the best leap....but not much a point to that when we can make a .82 T3 perform so well with only minimal increase in drive delta up top near 7k. our rotating assembly sucks for anything over 6k anyways...might as well build it for a nice flat Tq plateau

James, I really am not going to argue over semantics here; the difference with a well designed log and individual headers on the street or RR conditions on the specific app is really moot. You like a certain preference based on your own experience. The issue here is no one has experience with the other and are making unfounded remarks which is a bit condescending but I don't have an axe to grind here... This was a project we did (Westcoastfiero)on a v8 which had what I call complex, but turned out very well...logs where used and it is uses the pT we are hear talking about...and yes I out this up because it is a fiero... imo to obtain a flat torque curve will usually mean to start the turbo making useable power early in the curve. A well designed turbine-exhaust with a very good CR tends to help here...so then what does it matter how you charge the exhaust energy...?

 

[16MustangVet]

Who built the intake on the northstar?

I know that westcoastfieros and some others of the fiero cult have done engine/transmission swaps and combinations that would blow most peoples minds on this forum.......

LOL take for example people said a 4t80 wouldn't work..... But it does.

said a LS4 would not work with a 4t80..... but it does.

If you want to stop the negativity and non believers then post up results.

If its anything other than a SC or turbo 3800 with a junk 4t6fail glass transmission mated to it its crazy talk here........ LOL.

Me personally I still think the pulsing is a bit overkill for a 3800. Now stick it on a different engine that's capable of using higher RPM then it may be a different story such as a northstar engine or 3.4 DOHC engine. DOHC engines have entirely different power bands to begin with.

 

[koRnhead]

Ah hahahahaha. Since when is road racing not about improving your time????? Lol. The whole point of heading to the track is to go faster then everyone else. And at least faster then you went around the track last time.
I repeat what's it like watching pretty much every other track prepped car drive away from you?