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Body Work

idrivejunk

idrivejunk

Active member
BillBoost37 said:
Send away, I haven't researched the panel yet.
Click to expand...
Holler if I can help from this end when you do rockers. Blair spotweld cutters (the cheap ones) are great, you should get some for the job if you don't already have a tool for cutting spot welds. They make welds nearly as easy as bolts. Will send PM in case u miss this.

Off-site links for Bill or anyone who is considering rust patch work and would like to see some examples from simple to complex- but no GPs.

A brief talk about sanding: http://forums.highperformancepontiac.com/70/9117144/body-paint-upgrade/sanding/

and about primers: http://forums.highperformancepontiac.com/70/9074998/body-paint-upgrade/primers/

several random examples of simple rust patching and treatment: http://forums.highperformancepontiac.com/70/8346585/body-paint-restoration/fixing-rust/

later, more advanced fab work and tools in use: http://forums.highperformancepontia...-paint-restoration/learning-to-fab/page3.html

Any specific Qs about equipment and materials are welcome, just use the right forum please unlike me now. I know if any of you click, you'll probably just look at the pics, lol. But that might help ya! Some of the linked material is a couple years old, check dates. I still do the work now, used to just fix wrecks but now I restore classics. I have learned a lot and have lots to learn yet.
 


A little background for first time viewers. Matt has experience with body work and I have experience with mechanical work. There is nothing mechanical, electrical or suspension related that I won't do to fix a car. This brings us to Matt's skill, bodywork. My Regals rockers are rusting and the rest of the body is in good shape. I am considering doing some work to help the car along for another 2-3 years or more. Jason aka Sven Sexman also knows both sides, his dad is a body guy and during the GMR Badass turbo build I got a tour of the old guys shop. Happened to be a GP in there getting rockers. Dad told me it was relatively easy on these cars since it's not really structural. The basics were trim off old rusty panel, weld in new, smooth and paint. Currently I'm feeling that might be out of my area of knowledge. Matt mentioned having the skill and willingness to share information. I figured, I'd soak up the knowledge and put up a thread as well to help others that might have some of the tools etc available to them.

Let's get to it!

Matt, what is your recommendation for a new guy who is willing to buy a tool, honestly though..I won't be doing a lot of body work.
http://shop.blairequipment.com/Spotweld-Cutters-s/3.htm

Then what about cutting the rest of the metal to get the old panel off?

I will get pictures of the rockers and have looked only briefly online. Likely not a preferred supplier, but at the top of the search was Rockauto. They have two different looks to them. I think I need the second because the rust doesn't go toward the pillars from what I can see (which likely means they are worse than I think)

First type, goes up the pillar
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3489810&cc=1358434

I believe this is what I need
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3487386&cc=1358434

Hmmm maybe the first is really what I want, found more that look like that version. They also carry the Sherman line like Rockauto.
http://www.andysautosport.com/buick/1997_2004_regal/exterior/rocker_panels/key_parts/

Some very good views on this site.
http://www.partstrain.com/ShopByDepartment/Rocker_Panel/BUICK/REGAL

This leaves me to the question of... which do I need. The quickie outer only piece or the whole piece. I need to get some pictures of the problem area.
 
Hi, Bill. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I know a little about mechanicals as well but mostly dated knowledge. I can make old engines run, lol.

Anyway yes- Those are the Blair cutters I like. Along with a $20 pack of ten double ended 1/8" drill bits off a tool truck (to get good ones) because I like pilot holes.

Its time for me to hi-GTP-it to work now but I'll be back this evening to look over the parts you posted.

Gonna need those pics. You may not be ready to take the molding off yet to look though. I shall return ...
 
Matt,

I linked you to all the Blair weld cutters page. I was hoping you'd suggest a part number or kit. That way I know I'm aiming for the right stuff vs just one. There's no tool truck to get bits off (if you can't tell by my post count, I sit behind a desk). I know a couple guys that can get some decent bits though.

If you can fix old stuff, you can definately fix this new crap. Think about it this way, I swap a motor or even build it and there's no carb to set, no jetting to think about, no distributor to set in place (or drop in 180 off :th_laugh-lol3:). The real parts of getting it to run are done by the computer. Which nearly any pcm in these things will get it to at least run. I've fired up plenty of na on a sc pcm or the other way around, just enough to know it's working. Reality is.. a bolt still typically turns clockwise to loosen.

Body work.. I think that takes more time/effort/patience
 
Bill, 13224 is the Blair cutter #. I gathered some helpful images / vid today. Will make a more informative post in a couple hours. Thanx man.
 
If you are seeking a quality rust repair and don't know good from bad, follow along and I'll show you the basics so you will know what is involved. I like to always be an informed shopper when something is as expensive and important as your car.

Bill, we'll look at rocker panels directly. Today I made a short video showing how to separate factory spot welds. After gaining full access to your rockers, this will be where you start. I'll walk you and the GPF'ers through other steps, but this is the part that so many car fixing guys cringe at. Its cake, I swear. Check it out-

Dragged out the fender off my 99 GT, it has a bracket made onto the fender at the bottom front. lets remove that. I use air at the shop so these are what I grab for this task:

THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS PHOTO THAT COSTS MORE THAN $30 NEW

IMG_5156_zpsdeaa3425.jpg


Counter clockwise from top left in that photo: BTW- "I DON'T LIVE NEAR A HF" IS NO EXCUSE. SHOP ONLINE OR LOCALLY ELSEWHERE FOR SIMILAR DEALS

Plain old $20 Mechanix gloves, original style http://www.harborfreight.com/air-to...rill-with-keyed-chuck-and-key-94585-2932.html

A 3-way painter's baseboard tool, used by me for separating stubborn welds. Most painter's tools are 6 or 7 way now, not sure where I got this one.

safety glasses

Hammer from a kit containing three, plus dollies. $60, on sale for $30 http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-body-and-fender-set-31277.html

Guarded, insulated cutoff tool $25 http://http://www.walmart.com/ip/Campbell-Hausfeld-TL053500AV-Cut-Off-Tool-Tool/36710779

Die grinder, $15, on sale for $10 http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-inch-inline-die-grinder-kit-53177.html

That die grinder comes with a few handy stones, bonus! The mandrel which mounts the wheel on the grinder is something I have had forever. One could be made with a bolt but this has left hand threads. You can use whatever other kind of sander or grinder you like. I usually level my new welds with the cutoff wheel first then a grinder and/or the purple wheel. For leveling lots of welds I use a thicker cutoff wheel. For cutting, a 1/16". For grinding, a 3/16" thick cutoff wheel is great. Like a rock. 3M and Norton are good cutoff wheel brands. Others are also good, many are out there. Never use one thats been wet and always discard before it gets too small, they can break. Thats a good reason to use a guarded cutoff tool.

3M purple (Clean-N-Strip XT) wheel. We buy in four packs but singles are $15 at this site: http://www.eastwood.com/5-x-1-2-cle...ode=ga220010&gclid=CI_11LqJm74CFaNj7AodDQcAsA
They are also available with twist-lock mounting and similar products exist but this is my fav. Lasts long.

Drills- I have two, to speed myself up. 20$ each, on sale for $15 http://www.harborfreight.com/air-to...rill-with-keyed-chuck-and-key-94585-2932.html
 


Heres the Blair spotweld cutter #13224 we're about to use. A well worn one. As you can see its like a 3/8" holesaw with a centering pin. The pin retracts and is spring loaded, so your pilot hole does not have to be drilled all the way through both panels. A center punch can also be used sometimes. There are times when drilling thru is wanted though. This does either. But after you see my video you'll know why a good pilot hole is important. See the broken teeth on the used up end of that double-ended cutter? Slip-ola. Don't bleed, drill safe.

Here they are at Summit Racing for $15 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/brc-13224?seid=srese1&gclid=CMaWv6COm74CFeMF7AodFDIAQQ

IMG_5160_zpsfa794ce0.jpg


This is replacement cutters in a 3-pack:

IMG_5171_zps12f322d4.jpg


This is the Blair next to an inferior brand (AES maybe?). Don't get those, they are softer metal.

IMG_5172_zps4563a32b.jpg


This is a pack of ten double ended 1/8" drill bits I get from a tool truck. Just don't rely heavily on nitrided crap from HF unless you have too much blood in ya. Don't make me show that pic. Bonus peek into my presonal life in this pic. Who else has a speedometer on their phone? Thought not, lol.

IMG_5173_zps815b1600.jpg


These are a couple welds I cut loose already so you can see whats going on where the fender brace attaches to the skin:

IMG_5164_zps13d6ea5f.jpg


IMG_5165_zpscd6cf09a.jpg


IMG_5166_zps49261f96.jpg


IMG_5168_zpsd4b06dfc.jpg


IMG_5169_zpsdcfa7c9e.jpg


That last pic shows how it looks after leveling the old weld, and the difference between "drill-to" and "drill-thru". Oops. New welds need to be put back in the same spot. See how the base metal is fairly intact and straight? If your buddy runs up with an air hammer and says "Let me cut that thing off for ya right fast!", punch him.

THIS is how you do it ... pardon the swears. Those drills are high mileage units and I did not support the work piece properly. Plus everybody else was leaving for the day!

 
BillBoost37 said:
This leaves me to the question of... which do I need. The quickie outer only piece or the whole piece. I need to get some pictures of the problem area.
Click to expand...


Good question. I could make a case for either one, depending on the extent of your damage. Other facts you should know before deciding:

If you use the cheapo, you have to make a joint the length of the rocker. If you use the taller one, that sectioned joint length goes down from about seven feet to just a couple. How many feet of weld do you want to dress? Yeah, less is better. BUT... then you have complex contour to deal with in the door jambs. Hmmm....

Since skill level is novice on this, there may be a simpler way. Use the cheapos and "panel bond" the long seam with proper adhesive. its kind of expensive. 3M 8115 or 8116, about forty bucks but requires an "Automix" applicator gun. For me, 3M is best but other brands exist. Proper prep is vital, and all the other areas of the panel still must be welded. This may not qualify as a warranty quality repair but if its your car and its not structural ... glue is an option. Those cheapos may not fit very well though, and could need some shaping at the bottom flange. Of course, if you do your splice low, you will need to watch out for door bottom edge clearance, especially if bonding.

Personally, I can make short work of the panel fitting required in the jambs, to use the tall rocker section. I would wager that splitting some corners would be required for a just right fit. Grinding and filler work after this repair and before primer will be more significant if splicing on the visible face of the pillar jambs. Bonding is not an option if using the taller panel. I sort of hesitate to mention bonding but its tempting I'm sure. I want everything welded, its not much more work if you weld decent.
 
Matt,

Awesome stuff there. If you think not holding that panel was bad (I laughed), I can show you a video I did to show how to put a torque converter onto a stator support. On.... 2-3 milk crates. It's funny when things aren't supports/held in place reasonably for a vid.

I'll likely get the detailed pictures of my issue areas this weekend. There's a lot going on this week at work and home. Thank you very much for all you have provided so far and I'm off to order the weld cutter and purple wheels. There is also a paint/body supply shop nearby and I know I can get nearly anything I need there.

Looking at Amazon the 11096 Blair kit has 3 cutters and a couple other things for $42. While I'd go with that, I'm sure you would have suggested this kit if it had the drill or if I planned a profession of weld cutting. Going with a single.

I'm coming up with the snap on bits...but DBL seems to be a left handed bit. I'd be looking for regular, not lefty, correct? Because I use my right hand to drill, not my left (Yes..I am joking)

Purple Clean and Strip. You know..I love a good 3M. Hey...they make roloc's of them too. Need to look and see if I have a mandrel already.
 
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Hey there, idrivejunk. I am currently in the process of painting a spoiler and front lip for my 04 Comp G. The lip has some sort of primer on it, there was a cheap coat of rattle can paint ontop of that which flaked right off. Would you suggest just scuffing the primer, then put my paint on? Or put adhesion promoter ontop of the scuffed primer, then do my priming/blocking? Maybe even take the primer right off and start at the raw plastic? I am painting them in a booth if that matters any. Thanks!
 


WhiteLightningGTP said:
Hey there, idrivejunk. I am currently in the process of painting a spoiler and front lip for my 04 Comp G. The lip has some sort of primer on it, there was a cheap coat of rattle can paint ontop of that which flaked right off. Would you suggest just scuffing the primer, then put my paint on? Or put adhesion promoter ontop of the scuffed primer, then do my priming/blocking? Maybe even take the primer right off and start at the raw plastic? I am painting them in a booth if that matters any. Thanks!
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Hi, WhiteLightning. Test the stability of the existing finish by rubbing it with a rag moistened in lacquer thinner if possible. If it wrinkles and lifts readily, or if it easily wipes off, thats not very stable. Test the adhesion of the primer by sanding through it and featheredging a non-obvious spot. If the edge can be sanded very thin without coming off, thats stuck pretty good. Maybe stick some duct tape to an edge real hard then yank that off. So if it sands out smooth on an edge and doesn't easily wipe off with thinner, its probably safe to leave that coating on it.

In other words, wipe off all the spray paint with thinner then sand whats left. If you have some primer its a very good idea to apply that at this point, to seal the old finish and provide a fresh base for the color.

Adhesion promoter should not be necessary unless the plastic is bare and new, having never been painted. If you sand off all the old primer, you probably don't need the promoter but it can't hurt.

Painting in a booth is good, and using professional products is better. Doing both is best. Usually if I want to just spray paint something, dusting with a damp towel is my prep.
 
Finally had enough brain power in the morning and remembered to nab pictures.

Passenger side only

Rear door area


Front door area




I'm thinking it's tall rocker, right?
 
That or the shorty and be ready for a little patchwork. I was gonna say short at first glance but the pics... kneeling down there for a close-up would be more informative. Hopefully some of what you see will clean up and not have to be entirely cut away.
 


This car didn't have it visibly anywhere 4 years and 80K miles ago. Looks like most of it started with the cladding rubbing. But that may just be where it's showing.
 
I make it around eventually, Bill... been a long day. I'm having trouble making out whether somebody has done a repair there already or not, to be honest. I'd need to dig at it with a screwdriver and see whats peeling paint and whats goner metal. Getting the tall rocker would of course be the safest course of action. If its not over a hundred shipped, I'd get that. But if theres a huge price difference, you could go with the shorty and spend more time on the surrounding areas. If you aren't up for making any patches for the jambs, better get the bigger panel. Probably worth it, I don't know the price. If you were to scrape off some loose stuff (got white rustoleum to cover it up until you're ready to fix?) and poke around at the metal with a sharp tool, you'd find the answer to which panel to order. When in doubt, go big. Its easy to toss what you don't need.

Once you have the part next to the rusty car I can help you establish the exact cuts and plan out the easiest method of attaching the new steel. Never trust the product pictures!
 
Matt...I was already aiming for the bigger piece. Why screw around? The metal appears mostly solid, however that hole you see is where I noted the weakest looking area and gave it a serious bunch of pokes with my (very strong) finger. From the start, I have assumed it's likely big panel.

Figured I'd finally get the pictures up.

Meanwhile the buddy that would help with the rocker is .... working on a VW I sold him, so .. you know how that goes. Meanwhile..she's solid enough to be road worthy and safe for now.

Are there any paints/steps that I might want to get on ordering now to have on hand for when it's welded or before it's welded as protection?
 
BillBoost37 said:
Figured I'd finally get the pictures up.

Are there any paints/steps that I might want to get on ordering now to have on hand for when it's welded or before it's welded as protection?
Click to expand...

My preferred approach starts by treating any remaining rust with a one step converter after wire brush or wheel then cleaning,

Once dry, use Clean n Strip discs to remove as much rust as possible. Repeat step 1 if brown still shows.

Ignore "weld-thru" primers. Ignore coatings that are to be applied over rust.

After that, coat with a direct-to-metal epoxy primer such as PPG's DP series. Can be used with a brush. Buying a quality brand pays here. Apply 2-3 coats, after cleaning the surfaces with a solvent-based paint prep degreaser.

If epoxy primer is too expensive, use quality aerosol self etching primer such as SEM or U-POL. You won't find pricing for pro products on the web for comparison, go to a store.

After the DTM primer, give all the internal areas 2-3 of rattle can engine paint.

Prep panels for welding (drill your plug weld holes) after that, then weld it up and clean / grind the mess.

More epoxy primer, plenty.

Sand n clean that and you're ready for seam sealer such as 3M UltraPro urethane (good stuff. Cheaper will do) then paint.

To review: Rust converter, stripping discs (they reach into pits better than sandpaper), solvent-based wax and grease remover, epoxy or etch primer, leftover glossy spray paint (engine paint preferred because it burns less when welding), seam sealer. See what you come up with, holler back if needed.
 
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