97 GP GT - Let's project a project car (from trailer to driving)

[EricGTP]

I love red coupes. Makes me miss my old one. Looks good man keep up the good work.

 

[penright]

with a top swap, you dont need to change the cam. i think the farthest you need to go is the heads.
stock rockers are actually best with most cam setups.

Are you talking just bolt on type stuff?
I understand from some reading, that because of the N/A compression being more than the S/C it needs to breath better so you don't get into knock. The smaller the pulley from stock (more boost), the more you have to do to breath. I wan't some

A different way of asking, I know the normal wear expectations for N/A heads and I would assume the same would be for S/C heads, but I don't have any experience with blowers. How many miles? What maintenance should have been done? What questions to ask the person who is selling? What normally fails? Is my assumptions correct for the N/A vs S/C heads? What are going prices?
I know I still have a lot to learn, that is what makes it fun

 

[penright]

I love red coupes. Makes me miss my old one. Looks good man keep up the good work.

I kind of had my heart set on black, had one before, so I was not too thrilled about red, but after seeing yours, there hope.
Got a long way to go, now it's more time, but it won't be long and I will be waiting on money.

 

[penright]

As you you may know from the another thread, my 06 GT was rear ended and the first offer from the insurance is they are totaling it. They are also only offering $6000 including title and registration. I know the mileage is high but it is in great shape. I have to give up the rental today. I took last Friday off making a long weekend, so I started working on the project car to see if I could get it enough driveable to wait out the insurance company. I could drive the Mustang but I hate to see it used for a daily driver even temporary. I started at 6:00am in the morning. Changed the Crank Position Sensor, flushed the coolant, tried to clean the JY carpet and fixed the air conditioner. Right now it is black tagged so I could not drive it, but the engine sounds pretty good. I will document the fixes in their own thread to make any comments easier. I am going to call my insurance agent and see what month to month insurance would cost, get the black tag converted, and see if it will serve me for a short time. Still have all the front end issues. This may justify spending money faster than the budget I agreed with the wife, "honey we can't let the insurance company think they have us over a barrel".

 

[penright]

As was mention earlier, I changed the Crank Position Sensor (CKP) Friday. I did not take any pictures, there is tons of information on the web and this forum. My air compressor only hits about 120 and my air gun would not bust the crank bolt loose. I made the tool like in one of the videos to fit into the slots on the harmonic balancer. I started with my one foot break over bar, nothing. So I added three feet of cheater. In the video the guy used what looks like 1/4" plate, all I had was 1/16". I still thought there was no way 3" turn on edge would bend. Well it warp like a pretzel. I could have added a stiffener along the bottom, but I had a piece of 1" by 2" square tubing. Put a couple of bolts in and they bent like snakes. So then I got some 3/8 bolts, ground them to fit the slots, dry fitted them to get the angle, then marked the position and welded. Then with closed to 4 feet of leverage finally got the bolt to break loose. Just for reference Auto Zone and O'Reilly rental pullers will not fit a 3.8. There is a thread on this fourm on using a harbor freight puller and you buy the bolts. The thread starts with a metric size, but Bill (i think) corrected it with 1/4" -28 3 1/2". The size I bought was 1/4" - 28 (fine thread) 3" long. my choice was 3" or 4". I bought both and used the 3". They worked fine. I did buy grade 8 bolts and washers. I bought two sizes of washers, one the fit the bolt and a step up in size. I did not get any bending like in the pictures. It worked great. Grade 8 bolt are expensive, about a buck apiece, and washers were $.30 apiece, but as a tool they were well worth it. There was a ton of grease and it took some cleaning to see the dust cover just snaps on. Any way it went back together and as Bill said, I just laid into the crank bolt with my air gun. Since I am only 120 pounds, I waited for air compressor to recharged and hit it again. I don't think, or at least hope, it will fall off.

 

[penright]

Started working on the carpet. Good thread started in the "detail" so this is where I am posting the carpet discussion.
http://www.grandprixforums.net/cleaned-cleaning-my-carpet-out-car-63294.html#post1085223

 

[penright]

Because I all of suddenly lost my daily driver, I focus on the project car and got it road ready, somewhat. Lot's of cosmetics and the front end still needs a lot of TLC, but it will still drive safe, maybe a little hard on tires, but this is all short term anyway.
The next step was transferring the totaled GP insurance to the project car. No use in paying full coverage for a car sitting in an impound yard.

So now that I had insurance, I got it out on the road. This thing actually had some pep to it. Power steering was low, not sure if it has a leak or what yet. I bet it does since oil can't everopartate, so I guess better said, I don't know where leak is yet. :-(

Anyway, my current thinking, just do the top swap, front end, fix power steering, and cosmetics. I will not do the transmission until it show some issues, which may not be long. The back valve cover maybe leaking, after the car got hot I could smell oil burning and when I popped the hood I could see smoke from the back manifold. Of course after the top swap this will be replaced, but I don't want to drive it with a chance of fire, so now I need to decide how soon I can get the top swap. That depends on what parts and how good a price I can get them at. As I am typing this, I wonder if the power steering is the smoke source. I will put it up on ramps to take a look. I will update this post later.
Anyway now I am looking for top swap parts, if anyone knows of any let me know. Thanks.

 

[penright]

with a top swap, you dont need to change the cam. i think the farthest you need to go is the heads.
stock rockers are actually best with most cam setups.

As you can see from my previous post, I am not going all out in the beginning.
So my question is the cam on a N/A the same as S/C?

 

[TLSheff]

Man oh Man, how could you have kept all this hidden from people for 3+ weeks. It's so one sided I feel ashamed, for what you are doing and the questions usually a thread like this would be 8 pages deep by now. My appologies for the lack of attention, need to get more people into this.

For starts, Welcome (old news I know but still). TL, a fellow Okie, southern state-side but still. Also work parts 8-5 at a GM Dealership so if you need info please feel free to ask, PM or message me on FB, I'm in the group. Actually how I found this, met Kevin once, bought some F-Body brakes off him, still gotta put those bad boys on my GTP lol.

Anywho, looking into your last question, yes. L67 (supercharged) and L36 (NA) both share a GM# 24505811 Camshaft for 97 so cams are the same.

As far as reading material, since you stated you are here to learn, give these a look-over and bookmark them (If you haven't already)
http://www.grandprixforums.net/97-03-w-body-buyers-guide-common-problems-60802.html
http://www.grandprixforums.net/safely-modding-your-3800-a-67580.html
http://www.grandprixforums.net/ultimate-cheap-mod-thread-free-50-a-49055.html

Being that you are looking into a TopSwap, consider while you are into the motor you will want to replace the Lower Intake Manifold gaskets, look for the Felpro "Problem Solver" gaskets, they are re-designed as metal gaskets with rubber seals vs the original (likely still on your motor) "plastic compound" with rubber seals. You will also want to replace the 90* elbows and various other parts to freshen it up while the motor is apart. Last time I replaced the gaskets when putting in a "new" used motor, I spent about $200 on gaskets and parts but no leaks and 30k+ later she's still running like a top... but as my Daily Driver and toy I need it to be done right and reliable.

BTW I reference to a question a while back about the "Stage" parts. No. just No. Unless you have money to burn and like to throw it away, which case I take donations for my projects :th_winking:, they are a waste of money. For each kit, you can usually piece it together and come out with the same quality or better for less. Just depends on how deep your pockets are.

For other points of interest and reading materials for things that could be relevant.
Full tear down and changing Lower Intake Manifold Gaskets in 33 minutes video included
Bill Boosts Easy Header Change Method
http://www.grandprixforums.net/header-manifold-thread-25922.html
http://www.grandprixforums.net/dyno-science-cai-box-vs-open-cone-intake-33225.html

& for your view pleasure
http://www.grandprixforums.net/top-swap-info-faqs-also-lots-3800-info-7763.html

 

[BillBoost37]

On the top swap.. I'd hold off until you get the other car issues resolved. You'll need tuning etc that may take a little time.

The rear valve cover is a cake walk, you can unbolt/loosen the alternator tensioner and sneak the cover past w/o pulling it and having to drain the cooling system. FWIW the cheaper NA gaskets would be the quick easy route on a temp DD for me.

And on the bolts. Technically the balancer takes a M6 x 1.00 thread, but 1/4" fine thread will also work almost as well.

 

[penright]

I never did update on the a/c. Between insurance, replacing the wreck 06, and other personal issues (death in the family), I have not had time to post.
No clutch, and it was about 25 psi on both sides. So first I pulled a vacuum. I have a cheap air type vacuum pump, so it takes it a while and I got it down to -20ish. Let sit for about 30 minutes and all seemed to hold, so I started to dump a can back in. Most of my experience in a/c is from the 70's, I did not see a pressure switch to jump, but I felt it should have kicked off, still clutch not engaging. Put the car up on ramps so I could get to the compress more easily, and as I tried to gain access to the wire I notice a bare spot. Keep pealing back the loom and saw more bare spots on both the ground and hot. I took it all the way back to the first Y, separated them, fixed the blown fuse, plugged it back in and the clutch engaged. Taped up the wires, finishing dumping in the 134 and cold air.

If I am looking at it right I guessing about 2 cans from a completely evacuated system?

 

[penright]

On the top swap.. I'd hold off until you get the other car issues resolved. You'll need tuning etc that may take a little time.

I hear you. I am not going to start pulling parts off my car, but am looking to gather parts, including the tuner. That guy is going to set me back. :-( Any way, every so often I go to the local pull a part just to see if something new came through. I figure it will take some time to accumulate the parts at a good price.

Looks like a 99 GTP is there. Someone pulled the blower off and pulled the rotors off, I assume to inspect them. I guess they were bad because it was in the trunk. Since I have no point of reference, I snap some pictures to show and ask about it's quality.
Here the pictures, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best, how do these rate?
Quality Example Photos by penright | Photobucket

Also, as was mentioned in one of the earlier post, looks like I have the 4t60 trans. Before I do a top swap, should I cut bait and run? Should I go for it, get as much life out of a 4t60, then drop in a 4t65? I did do some google and there was discussion on wire loom to replace, pcm. Since by the time I do the top swap I should have the tuner, and as I keep reminding my self, this is about learning, I bet that would be a learning experience.

 

[Kejross]

Awesome deal on the AC... I love when it's something cheap like that and big results(cold air in our 100* heat=giant)

There should be a sticker, I think on the strut tower(???) that shows how many pounds of coolant it takes for a full charge. But seems like they later had a TSB issued or something that upped that number a bit so probably google it to be sure. Or get T.I. To look it up on his GM computer at work??


That blower actually looks pretty decent, the more black coating the better. Don't ever try to clean the blower pack or inside the case, that crud give it a better seal for more boost. I've seen them come outta cars completely silver and shiny, but it's usually flakes of the black coating that's more common. So pretty well anything that still all black like that one is good. Just look at bearings for sings of heat. And twist the pulley back and forth real quick, you should feel some slop(looked at probably 50 blowers at pullapart, only 1 wasn't worn) which is a worn coupler that's cheap and easy to replace and swap blower oil same time.

I personally would do a little more research on what it takes to convert to a 65 just to be certain, then decide what to do. I hate tossing working parts so I'd probably rock the 60 til it blew just cause then swap a 65 in. Unless its too big a pain to swap, then I'd just ditch it now lol


Was your 06 same color interior? Leather? I think I've seen it but don't remember... Those seats from the newer ones will fit 97-03 too, fronts direct bolt in, backs are a little mod but easy. Then wire then up of course, which I've seen write ups on. Just another thing you might buy the wreck 06 back for maybe.

 

[penright]

There should be a sticker, I think on the strut tower(???) that shows how many pounds of coolant it takes for a full charge. But seems like they later had a TSB issued or something that upped that number a bit so probably google it to be sure. Or get T.I. To look it up on his GM computer at work??.

I found it, just was wondering what others experience was, it cool enough, just could be a little colder, not worth busting open a partial can though.
[Edit]
I will add pix from my strut tower.
I found this chart
http://www.techchoiceparts.com/refrigerant-and-oil-capacities
Here is the GP section....
[TABLE="class: fluid-capacities, width: 672"]
[TR="class: fluid-capacities-model, bgcolor: #E6E6E6"]
[TD]GRAND PRIX[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 4"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]
[TD]2004[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R134a[/TD]
[TD]37.00[/TD]
[TD]PAG 150[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E6E6E6"]
[TD]1998-2003[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R134a[/TD]
[TD]36.00[/TD]
[TD]PAG 150[/TD]
[TD]9.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]
[TD]1997[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R134a[/TD]
[TD]36.00[/TD]
[TD]PAG 150[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E6E6E6"]
[TD]1994-1996[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R134a[/TD]
[TD]32.00[/TD]
[TD]PAG 150[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]
[TD]1992-1993[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R12[/TD]
[TD]36.00[/TD]
[TD]Mineral[/TD]
[TD]9.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E6E6E6"]
[TD]1988-1991[/TD]
[TD]All Engines[/TD]
[TD]R12[/TD]
[TD]36.00[/TD]
[TD]Mineral[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Looks, like I may be a can shy?
[End Edit]

That blower actually looks pretty decent, the more black coating the better. Don't ever try to clean the blower pack or inside the case, that crud give it a better seal for more boost. I've seen them come outta cars completely silver and shiny, but it's usually flakes of the black coating that's more common. So pretty well anything that still all black like that one is good. Just look at bearings for sings of heat. And twist the pulley back and forth real quick, you should feel some slop(looked at probably 50 blowers at pullapart, only 1 wasn't worn) which is a worn coupler that's cheap and easy to replace and swap blower oil same time.

It maybe hard to see in the picture, there were some groves around the outside blower case, and if you look real close there were some on the blades. That was the part I did not know if normal. I figured someone went through the effort to pull it, then abandoned it. Almost makes me think if it is all still there, might go get it. Bad thing is next Saturday, I have a funeral to go to. Doubt if it will all be there in two week. :-( Thanks for the coupler heads up, that the kind of information I need. Just more of it.

I personally would do a little more research on what it takes to convert to a 65 just to be certain, then decide what to do. I hate tossing working parts so I'd probably rock the 60 til it blew just cause then swap a 65 in. Unless its too big a pain to swap, then I'd just ditch it now lol

I agree. Before I spend big bucks, on something I don't think I can get my money back out, I will make that decision. Need to do more googling, unless someone who has done it can jump in.

Was your 06 same color interior? Leather? I think I've seen it but don't remember... Those seats from the newer ones will fit 97-03 too, fronts direct bolt in, backs are a little mod but easy. Then wire then up of course, which I've seen write ups on. Just another thing you might buy the wreck 06 back for maybe.

It was cloth. They want almost $1600 for the salvage value. My cousin had a salvage license, need to ask if he keep it up, they are so hard to get I know for a while he was. I may find when it goes to auction and see what I can get it for. I would like to have a bunch of parts for the new 06. The interior is good, but the seats in the old were better, I had put new bakes, tires, wheel bearings, and such.

 

[Kejross]

I see in the pics what you mean, how it looks like it's been hit with some 60 grit sand paper or whatever. That's pretty well normal from the ones I've seen too. So long as they have most coating and spin free and pulley shaft isn't bent you can't really ask for much more with the miles 98% of the 97-03 parts are gonna have. Our pullapart sure liked to stock grand prixs a couple years ago at least. Been a while since I needed to go for anything since my cars are kinda too new now but they used to have 5-6 GP's every time I went. And maybe 3-4 other cars on a good day with same supercharged engine. So don't limit your engine parts search to just GP's, look at everything that had a supercharged 3800.


That's a heck of a buy back, wonder why its so high?

 

[penright]

That's a heck of a buy back, wonder why its so high?

Just because they can.

Right now I am planning on biding on it. The adjuster who, brought the check and sealed the deal was pretty cool. The jest of our conversation is, when it comes to the disposition of the vehicle, you are going to get what you are going to get. Medical is a different story. As I said, I was sore, but not that bad and I am not that kind of person. If you hear of me filing a medical claim, then I am hurt. He did give me the place and lot number, it does not have a scheduled time yet.

What should I set for my top dollar on my bid? I thinking $700. It has brand new tires, struts, front passenger wheel bearing, off the top of my head. Swap the seats with the new 06. I need the little rubber piece right below the dash key switch for the 07.
After that what all will work on the 97? Brakes, rotors, outer tie rod ends? I have not had a chance, but I need to look at the fbody brake thing. I think T. I. said he bought a setup from you, once I do my research may have questions. I don't think the ones on the 97 have ever been metal to metal, but they are thin. If the fbody thing is too much, then I will just find a set of rotors, new pads, and call it a day. Since pull a part does not charge based on model, the rotors will cost the same, I know I have to change the calipers and there is a adapter plate, just need to see what the cost vs advantages are. In other words do my research.

I did find out in theory to switch from t60 to t65 is some wires need to be added to the pcm, reprogram, and CV axles. I read two different reason, one is the splines are different and the other is the lengths are different. So as you said, do the top swap and wait till the trans shells before the switch.

 

[Kejross]

Fbody brakes are a lot of bang for buck in my book. I s
have sold a couple sets, and I had drilled and tapped the brackets to fit our stock bolts. So I have the bits and tap if you get a set.



Dont see a lot of. 98+ Fbody cars at pullapart... Probably just get them from a junkyard, bet it would be under $100 for all of it from the right yard.

 

[penright]

Fbody brakes are a lot of bang for buck in my book. I s
have sold a couple sets, and I had drilled and tapped the brackets to fit our stock bolts. So I have the bits and tap if you get a set.Dont see a lot of. 98+ Fbody cars at pullapart... Probably just get them from a junkyard, bet it would be under $100 for all of it from the right yard.

So first I assume the 98 - 02 is the years. I was trying to figure out how far in parts I need to go. When you said, tap for our bolts, I was trying to figure out if that was the caliper to fit our bracket or bracket that bolt on the strut. From what I read, Let me say my understanding and see if it all sounds right. I guessing the bracket, caliper, and rotor and pads. Is this just the front or same process for the rear? I did not see any discussion on rear, so I assume they will not work or there not an advantage. How far up the brake line, just the hose? So, the bolts that hold the bracket to the struts on the 98+ Fbody must be smaller than ours, but the spacing between is the same. The geometry must be different somewhere since we need to use the Fbody rotors.

What kind of advantage does this give us?

So what kind of look does the part guy give you when we ask for a "set of pads from a 98 firebird for my 97 Grand Prix"? Didn't Johnny Cash write a song about a car like this? I got a feeling that T.I. works has access to GM parts, does he take his lunch? Maybe you have to be old like me to get any of this.

 

[Kejross]

Lol, I haven't heard that Johnny Cash song. But my old car had parts from several different cars, Cadillacs, Buicks, impala...


You got most of that pretty well spot on. It's just the fronts you do. Yes the bolt holes are smaller on Fbody, so you can use a smaller bolt and get a shim for it to fill the hole of our bigger bolts. Or still and tap the Fbody brackets to accept our bolts. Holes are same distance center to center. Either method works, I'm about to have to use shims on my GTO brakes here shortly.

The benefit is 3 fold... 1 you go from a 11" rotor to a 12" rotor. 2 you go to dual piston calipers instead of out stock single piston. 3 they look better with the fins in calioer and the way they fill the inside of the wheel better, and I'm not certain but I think the added weight of the bigger rotor is offset by the fact the Fbody calipers are aluminum instead of cast iron.


Also you can use your factory brake lines, just bend the bracket out away from wheel well a bit to add and inch or so of length, or you can spend some money on the longer braided stainless lines.


Ironically though I bought the tap and bit to do the Fbody brakes, on my own car I used the 06+ police impala brakes/rotors. They are basically the same thing but a cast iron caliper with no fins and its from another W-body so bolt holes were the same. I got the calipers for like $80 then bought new rotors. I also powder coated and rebuilt the calipers/brackets and went with all braided stainless lines, and deleted the "5th soft line" I think I'd just use stock brake lines if I did it again.

 

[penright]

Lol, I haven't heard that Johnny Cash song. But my old car had parts from several different cars, Cadillacs, Buicks, impala...

You need to listen to it, I found this on youtube. Once you hear the words, then you get my meaning.
johnny cash cadillac song video - YouTube

Ironically though I bought the tap and bit to do the Fbody brakes, on my own car

What size/specs? I am not against buying a new tool. If not something special, I may have it. Back in the racing days we had some left handed taps. It was for when we made a rod with spherical ends, so as the bar was turned the length could be adjusted. I had a tool box stole from my friends garaged and lost them. :-(
[Edit] Found this posting from TL. http://www.grandprixforums.net/f-body-caliper-bracket-70243.html

I also powder coated and rebuilt the calipers/brackets

I saw in one of your post about getting an oven in your shop to powder coat small parts. At sometime I was going to ask about that. I assume it is a do it yourself powder coating. Where do you buy the material? I guess the process creates a mess, that is why I don't want to use the wife's. How hard is the process? Expensive? Maybe when you get sometime, you can show me how.
Also, do you know where we can pick up CAN spray clear coat?

and deleted the "5th soft line" I think I'd just use stock brake lines if I did it again.

How do "delete the "5th soft line""? I did some googling and did not see it.