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Learning the 4T65E



BillBoost37 said:
That's what I had heard as well. However take a gander at post #3
http://www.grandprixforums.net/clutch-air-test-65837.html#post846485

Dave said go higher. Trans line pressure when maxed out is about ~170psi.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I only saw Monty's post about the rebuild process. I have only ever used the lower pressure method....but that was without the clutches. Next time I rebuild one I'll test while all clutches and snap rings are installed. Once again Dave to the rescue!

"Make 100% sure everything is assembled and clutches/snap rings are in place! Any air test without the clutches installed is likely going to cause a seal to get clipped or damaged from the piston traveling too far and spring pressure forcing it back down and tearing it." - Dave

So I take it the only one that you can't test at the higher pressure is the 4th apply piston housed in the stator support??.....the channel plate would have to be installed to test.
 
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Oh no.. he assembled. I think later on he talked about that. And after that info from Dave.. Monty would be smacking himself if this issue was from testing w/o clutches.
 
Quick99GTP said:
I'm with Bill on this one....I think you've either rolled a seal or accidently cut a seal when intstalling. With the car shifting fine and going throught all the gears I'd say the VB is fine also. Knowing and working with Dave on my trans rebuild I'm sure there is a good chance he'd be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat with that diagnosis. Let us know whatyou find out.

Bill I'm not sure if you can answer this one but Monty had said in his original post while rebuilding the trans that he tested all of the clutches seperately @150psi. I thought that was really high in terms of pressure. In the manual and posts that I've looked at it says to test with 10-15 psi max. Any chance that putting that much pressure to one of the seals caused it to fail?
Click to expand...

By "testing all of the clutches separately" I meant testing each one, sorry for the confusion. The entire stack was assembled, clutches and all. Also, I'll have to go back and see what I wrote, but I didn't use 150 psi it was 100psi at Dave's instruction. Also, when I partially tested the clutch without the snap ring installed, I was using very low air...maybe 5 psi and the piston never got close to the snap ring groove.

As far as rolling a seal, there is no seal to roll in the second clutch housing. The reason I am leaning towards a bad 2nd hub is because of the original problem...no second gear. Now after the rebuild...no second gear. It was there at first, but slipping and got worse in a hurry. Since I added an extra steel to the clutch pack to tighten it up some, it was able to function somewhat until the clutches fried. Also, before 2nd gear originally gave way, the tranny was bang shifting very badly and was driven that way for a few months. The excessive pressure and slamming into gear could have cracked a weak weld in the 2nd hub, leading to the loss of 2nd gear. Also, during the air test, I heard a lot of air leakage in the second drum. I couldn't really tell where it was coming from though. Dave gave me better way to test it so I will be able to see a possible crack. I also plan to food color test it. If you don't know what that is, it's an old trick I learned years ago from an old mechanic. If he suspected a hairline crack in something, he would heat it up in the oven, then coat it in food coloring while it was hot (250° or so). After it cooled, wipe off the food coloring. The crack will be revealed as a line the same color as the food coloring used because it will seep into the crack. As the metal cools, it becomes trapped and can't be wiped away. It's a pretty neat trick actually.
Heck, I may be completely wrong here, but I'll find out this weekend when the tranny comes out again. I'll keep you posted as to what I find.
 
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Quick99GTP said:
So I take it the only one that you can't test at the higher pressure is the 4th apply piston housed in the stator support??.....the channel plate would have to be installed to test.
Click to expand...

No, you can also test it at the higher pressure without the clutches. The snap ring is already installed over the piston and return spring. You will actually see the piston move.
 
Hey Monty.. I bet you fly through the removal and install much much quicker.

FYI, a tip I don't tell the usual cast of characters as you want to be a little "safer" with them. I support the drivetrain, drop the sub, then unhook the rest. With the sub out of the way, it's nice..and fast.
 


BillBoost37 said:
Hey Monty.. I bet you fly through the removal and install much much quicker.

FYI, a tip I don't tell the usual cast of characters as you want to be a little "safer" with them. I support the drivetrain, drop the sub, then unhook the rest. With the sub out of the way, it's nice..and fast.
Click to expand...

I'm way ahead of you there Bill. Tranny stays where it is until the sub is out. That's how I did it the first time. You are right though, it is going much faster this time. I had an hour and a half of daylight after work this evening and got all of the top end stuff done, and got both wheel wells empty (except for pulling the half shafts, I forgot to pick up the dang sliding hammer). I can get it at 7:30 tomorrow morning and should have the tranny out by noon or so.

In the mean time, I found a very sweet Dodge Durango 5.9L 4WD for $500. It's a '99, but has a fairly new engine from Jasper. No rust and the engine sounds great. It's sitting on two flat tires (slashed by an idiot) so I can't drive it yet. Owner ( an acquaintance) says it will go into reverse and drive just fine, but won't shift gears (maxes out at about 35mph)...YAY!!! I might get to tear into another transmission!!! For $500, I just can't pass it up. It is really solid. If the tranny is beyond repair, I could either replace it R&R or get my money back easily by parting it out.

Anyway, stay tuned for the 4T65E Rebuild...the sequel!
 
You confused me Monty.. what do you mean you got the wheel wells empty? don't you pop balljoints, lower sub..yank axles? Which...without sub can be done with nearly any prybar on hand.
 
I pop the ball joints, remove the steering knuckle and axle as a unit (I use a sliding hammer, works like a champ), brake brackets and drop the struts. Then I drop the sub-frame with the control arms attached. The result is an empty wheel well.
 
i know for a fact bill pops the ball joints, removes the axles. the strut and brakes stay put. he then takes a ratchet strap to a center support post in his garage to the drivers side knuckle and pulls it to the rear of the car, and the trans slides right out the wheel well.


Bill also has the worlds best axle popper tool ever made.

we had my trans out in about 1.5 hours. whole job took 4 hours, (out and back in) and then road test, then drove it back home 150 miles lol
 
How do you get the axles out with the steering knuckle in the way? Do you just let the axles, knuckle and all hang there? What I do is:

Remove the tires.
Remove the brake calipers from the rotors.
Pop the outer tie rod ends and ball joints.
Remove the sway bar drag links.
Remove the 2 large bolts for the strut to steering knuckle.
Pop the axles with a sliding hammer, and remove axles and steering knuckle together.
Remove the three nuts holding the strut, and remove the strut.
Wire the caliper to one of the strut holes out of the way.
Drop the sub frame.

It takes about 10 minutes per side.
 


Monty... here's the "easy" way. I say that because if you search "easy" and my Sn, you get all the how to's that I've done.
http://www.grandprixforums.net/how-remove-transmission-35485.html

I support motor from above
Zip off tires (put under car. In case jackstands fall..these will give you a fighting chance
Drain trans fluid
Remove the 4 15mm nuts holding the engine and trans mounts to the subframe
Remove the two 18mm bolts holding the rack to the subframe. Then wiggle to ensure it's free.
Remove the 10mm bolt holding the ps rack line to the subframe
Remove both axle nuts and tap axle to free it of the wheel bearing.
Remove the balljoint cotter pins and 18mm nut from each side
Remove the 10mm bolt holding the brake line to the wheel well.
Using a large prybar. Come in paralell to the body of the car, over the control arm, under the body by the driver door. Push down on that while you smack the side of the balljoint with a large hammer. This pops the joint free w/o hurting the boot.
Now your subframe is 4 18mm bolts away from being on the floor.
If you don't have two jacks like I do.. you can leave one balljoint nut barely on to hold up one side for you.

Then the subframe is down... the axles are ready to come out of the transmission and you don't fight any steering rack, alignment etc issues. Clock spring can not be an issue, bleeding the system etc can't be an issue. Tis all good.
 
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