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4t65e rebuild...

M

MontyJ

New member
And boy do I have questions!

History:

This tranny is out of a 2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue with nearly 200,000 miles on it. As far as I know the fluid and filter have never been changed.

Problem:

A few months ago it started the infamous "bang shift". Then a few weeks ago it began hesitating between 1st and 2nd. Now, it won't go into 2nd for several seconds, if at all. Sometimes it will coast nearly to a stop and drop back into first.

Solution...(oh boy):

Since I absolutely cannot afford a new tranny, or a new car for that matter, I decided to rebuild it. I'm not new to cars. I have been working on them for over 30 years and have done everything from tire changing to complete engine overhauls. I started by buying the ATSG book and reading everything I could find about this tranny before I started the teardown.

Progress:
Tranny removal from the car sucked as I knew it would. Following the book, dis-assembly was a breeze. I actually enjoyed it, except for the 2nd and 3rd snap rings. Those are a PITA. I have found a number of problems, such as pinion play on the reaction carrier. The brass thrust washers are completely gone (explaining some of the tiny brass flakes I found inside the filter when I cut it open). I also think I have a problem in the 1-2 roller clutch. The reaction sun gear drum, when inserted into the 1-2 roller support will not turn clockwise (normal), but when I try to turn it CCW, it squeals and seems to be dragging on the thrust bearing. There is obvious wear on the bottom of the reaction drum where it rides on the thrust bearing, and the bearing surface is showing wear as well. When I take the bearing out, it seems to spin fine. I'm replacing it anyway to see if it helps. Found several other things wrong as well, but won't go into detail unless someone is interested. So far I have already ordered the Master Rebuild kit from Tripleedgeperformance.com and a new reaction carrier. I will also be ordering a Transgo shift kit.

Questions...(for now):

My biggest question concerns the brass bushings found throughout the tranny. Many are worn and frankly I don't like the idea of leaving any of them in. Can anyone tell me how to replace these? Is there a reasonable bushing tool that won't break the bank?

Hit me with any questions you have. And thanks for any info you could offer.
 


Toss an email at TEP and see if they have suggestions. I remember picking up the set and not ending up having to do them. I had a plan...but that was a couple years back and I just don't remember.
 
Rico said:
This is a good thread:

View topic - Illustrated 4T65E Rebuild : PontiacBonnevilleClub.com
Click to expand...

Thanks, I have already read that one about 300 times! It's because of that thread that I decided to try this. Unfortunately, he never discusses replacing the bushings.

BillBoost37, I sent an email to TEP Monday. I just got the reply. Dave says they sell replacement bushings, but gave no hint as to how to replace them. I found a universal transmission bushing replacement master kit...for $450 :th_sick1: I'll have to pass. The good news is, Dave says the squealing and drag are normal for the sun gear drum, so all is well there.
 
I called Dave at TEP Friday afternoon. We discussed the bushing issue and have determined that the bushings are fine for re-use. That is a big load off my mind. As I noted earlier, I ordered the master overhaul kit from TEP. In the email I sent TEP I, mentioned to Dave that I would probably be ordering more parts very soon. He saved me some money by not shipping the kit right away. Friday I also ordred tranny lube, the oil dam, thrust washer kit, input speed reluctor wheel, and the Sonnax TCC relief valve fix. Here is the great part. I received the parts yesterday! So, ordered Friday and received Saturday. Just can't beat that. Unfortunately I forgot to order the input piston. It was right there on the list! Oh well, I'll just have to eat the shipping on that one.

I also received the new reaction carrier from WIT. End play measures .012 on all pinions and all brass washers look great!

According to the tracking numbers, I should receive the Transgo shift kit, pump, pump shaft, and hardened 4th hub on Monday. That leaves the Sonnax line/rev boost valve kit, 1-2 accumulator valve bore plug, solenoid kit, all three bands and the lube tube retainer. I'm also replacing the TC and flushing the cooler. So, about another $450-$500 and this will be a done deal.
 
Nice...

Not sure how you went about pulling the trans, if you search on "Easy" and my SN, there is a writeup on how to do it. Maybe it helps make it easier?
 


For pulling the tranny, I built an engine hanger out of unistrut. I removed what was required to get to the bell housing bolts on top, dropped the subframe enough to get to that SOB bolt that comes from behind. Had to use every 1/2" extension I had and go in through the passenger wheel well to do it. Then supported the tranny and took out the subframe. Finally dropped the tranny and drug it out the drivers wheel well. I got the pump, shaft and 4th hub yesterday. They look a whole lot better than what I took out. I have pics of pretty much everything if anyone is interested, including my hillbilly homemade clutch spring compressor.
 
Here are a few pics of things I found wrong. I have tons of pics if anyone wants to see a certain part.

The oil baffle was very brittle and busted when I tried to take it out. Fortunately Dave at Triple Edge hooked me up. Thanks Dave!!!
oilbaffle.jpg


Here are the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] clutches. Ouch!
4thclutches.jpg


Wouldn’t have had 4[SUP]th[/SUP] for much longer with this shaft.
4thhub.jpg


This pin was very loose in the reluctor wheel. I ordered a new one.
reluctorwheel.jpg


The forward and reverse bands were a uniform black in color. I don’t know if they are burned or came in that color. I’m replacing them anyway.
bands.jpg


blackbands.jpg


The manual band isn’t black.
manualband.jpg


The 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] clutches have seen better days. Still, hard to believe there’s almost 200,000 miles on this tranny.
2ndclutches.jpg


Planetary clearance was WAY out.
planetary.jpg


Because the brass thrust washers were completely gone.
nowashers.jpg


The input clutch piston is fubar.
inputclutch1.jpg


inputpiston2.jpg


The transtec kit came with this nifty lip seal tool.
tool.jpg


I invented my own tool for compressing the springs. Made from stuff laying around the barn. It actually worked great. I made different adapters for the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP], 3[SUP]rd[/SUP], and sprocket support assemblies.
mytool.jpg


mytool2.jpg
 
I'll get more pics up later today. In the mean time...

This thrust washer has very uneven wear. It’s located between the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] hub and the channel plate.
thrustwasher.jpg


The area in red shows where the wear was occurring. So far I have not been able to identify a reason for it.
washerwear.jpg
 
Here is the new reaction planetary. Nice brass thrust washers.
reaction.jpg


This pump was wore slap out.
pump1.jpg


pump2.jpg


pump4.jpg


pump3.jpg


Third and input clutches. They look a lot worse in person.
3rdclutch.jpg


This is the back of one of the third clutches. I was trying to show how burned it looked, but the input steel in the background does a better job of showing it.
3rdsteels.jpg


And the all important AFL valve. It has only very minor wear, so no big deal.
AFL.jpg
 


Yeah, this thing was just wore out. I should have the last of the parts coming mid next week. I re-tested the clutch stack at 100psi and everything engages. I still hear some leaking when 3rd and 2nd and input are tested. It's not blasting air out, but it is leaking. I have left the stack assembled for a couple of days now hoping the 3rd and input seals will seat better. I can understand the 2nd leaking. There is no way those seals could ever be air tight. I wonder if the 3rd/input seals are the same way...no way to be air tight.

Dave...is some leaking around the input and 3rd normal at 100psi?

BTW, I got a new input piston from Dave at TEP and it is beautiful! I should have taken a pic of it, but forgot to. There is no way I'm tearing that housing apart again either. Just take my word for it, you can't go wrong getting it from TEP.
 
Last edited:
UPDATE:

I put the tranny together yesterday. Today I put it back in, filled it up, turned the key and...crap. The starter solenoid clicked briefly, then nothing. Tested the battery, fine. Tested the starter, fine. Just for giggles, hooked my OBD2 scanner up to it...NO LINK. Shut the ignition switch off for 30 seconds and tried again, NO LINK. Unhooked the battery for a few minutes...NO LINK. This scanner has worked on this car many times. So, either my computer decided to take a crap at the most convenient time it could find, or maybe the gear range selector switch is off somehow (which doesn't explain the NO LINK). Keep in mind the battery was unhooked for the last 6 weeks or so during the rebuild. Anyone have any ideas???
 


Hook up the ground at the lower trans stud. Should have two loop and one main battery cable.

Shhhh been there myself.. lol
 
BillBoost37 said:
Hook up the ground at the lower trans stud. Should have two loop and one main battery cable.

Shhhh been there myself.. lol
Click to expand...

HA! The ground was on the stud, but only finger tight...DOH! Tightened it up, and bingo. Have another couple of problems now though. Tranny seems to be slipping in 2nd gear under load (going up hill). And...I just went out to run it some more and the the car won't start again. Everything electrical works. Checked battery voltage while the wife turned the key and there was no drop at all. I double checked the starter wires, all tight. Didn't find any other loose grounds. The dang thing started fine 3 or 4 times in a row earlier today (after tightening the previously discussed ground). ODB2 reads "0 codes". This thing is really trying to twist my chain.
 
Have the wife hold the key to start and whack the starter. Likely something gunked up from being out etc etc. A couple whacks may work miracles. Or your battery cables are loose at the battery. Just saying..lol

As for 2nd..unsure there. That seal is a pain to seat.
 
Got it started again. Just went through and re-tightened everything I could find. It might have been the neg bat cable. It seemed a little loose. This 2nd gear thing is really bugging me. It didn't slip before the rebuild, so it has to be something I did. The clutch air test went fine. I emailed Dave and he gave a few ideas. I did check the valves after I installed them to make sure they were moving freely in their bores, re-torqued the valve body and channel plate bolts and double checked them because I read that they will loosen up as others are torqued, and the fluid level is right on. I didn't have any trouble seating the 2nd clutch piston. Using the installer tool in the transtec kit, it went right in. I used a lot of tranny goop from TEP to hold things together, including the check balls. I wonder if it might just need some time to dissolve? I really don't want to pull the tranny out again, but I may not have a choice. I don't want to risk burning out the clutches.
 
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