Thinking of converting to E85.. Yes or Ne??

**Timing** · 10-28-2013

Detonation: Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
Pre-ignition: Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

**crbquist** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by SnowFlake

False knock is when the knock sensors pick up on a noise in the same frequency range as real knock, but knock never actually occurred.
It's my goal to ensure that people can find and read information that is both relevant to the topic and correct.
What you're propagating is irrelevant and false.

Chris, your car isn't "knocking" during the shift because of the torque management. I hope you understand this concept is ridiculous.

Lol I understand the concept. The KR I'm seeing, to me anyways, is most likely not actual detonation. I'm just glad that my 14 year old KR sensors are still working..

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**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by Ginseng

Detonation: Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
Pre-ignition: Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

Exactly... and neither of these phenomenon have anything to do with torque management and vice versa.

**Timing** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by SnowFlake

Exactly... and neither of these phenomenon have anything to do with torque management and vice versa.

Thought ide point that out cus in that zzp article he said the overlap on his headgasket causing a hotspot and thus causing detonation when in fact it would actually be pre-ignition.

**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

The terms are easily confused and it's tough to find someone who ever even knew there was a difference.

**MoarkatsINmuhtrailer** · 10-28-2013

Look at it this way....

Any knock is real knock.

Whether it is internal or something causing vibration to meet the frequency of the crystal, the computer doesn't know or care what it is. It responds in the same way each time.

**crbquist** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by MoarkatsINmuhtrailer

Look at it this way....

Any knock is real knock.

Whether it is internal or something causing vibration to meet the frequency of the crystal, the computer doesn't know or care what it is. It responds in the same way each time.

Very true.. The timing is still being retarded whether it is detonation or not.

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**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

That's not what we're debating though.
Bill maintains that KR during the shift is torque management.
It's not... and it's not what you're seeing. What you're seeing is something triggering the knock sensors.

**darkhorizon** · 10-28-2013

Again, ive never found "random false knock".. Ive been doing this thing for at least 2x longer than snowtard has been. The only false knock I have found renders the car nearly undrivable, maxing out the KR system at any throttle position above zero.

The trick with shifting is SUDDEN massive increase in engine load, which combined with a sudden increase of timing accuracy (google timing creep) creates the prime situation for pre ignition and pinging. I use torque management in everything i drive, because a half a tenth at the drag strip reduces transmission temperatures significantly for me.

**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by darkhorizon

Again, ive never found "random false knock".. Ive been doing this thing for at least 2x longer than snowtard has been. The only false knock I have found renders the car nearly undrivable, maxing out the KR system at any throttle position above zero.

The trick with shifting is SUDDEN massive increase in engine load, which combined with a sudden increase of timing accuracy (google timing creep) creates the prime situation for pre ignition and pinging. I use torque management in everything i drive, because a half a tenth at the drag strip reduces transmission temperatures significantly for me.

People usually resort to name calling when their position is weak.
I've had a 3800 since 2004. So if you were doing this twice as long as I have, you would have had a 3800 in 1995.
See where I'm going with this?

In your obviously limited experience, you may never have come across minor false knock as I have.
ZZP and intense both sell false knock eliminator kits. Some people run dynamat on the trans and have had good success.
I've seen, first hand, plenty of cases where a sway bar contacting the down pipe causes random and false KR signals. It can also be triggered by noise in the trans, the dipstick tube hitting something, and pretty much anything in the engine bay that can make noise within the frequency that the knock sensors detect.

To say otherwise is flat out wrong, something you tend to get yourself wrapped up in quite a bit.

**Iceman6669** · 10-28-2013

While I have no room to say i have a great deal of expertise in this area I can say this, I have hit my headers/cross-over with a wrench and lightly tapped it with a hammer to try and see some KR (I was worried at the time my knock sensor had crapped out on me) and I was unable to get ANY knock. I also know for a fact that my O2 sensor is FIRMLY hitting my fire-wall (I have been meaning to have it moved to the cross-over just havn't gotten around to it) and I still see no/little knock at the shifts. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here.. Just adding my 2 cents.

**BillBoost37** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by SnowFlake

Bill maintains that KR during the shift is torque management.

The table I posted clearly identifies that there is timing reduction during a shift, based upon some criteria being met. Whether you want to believe how it's injected etc, I couldn't honestly care. I've conversed with many a seasoned/professional tuner on the subject as well as reading the FSM on the subject. GM did a nice job of describing how things work. Keep in mind you are also using DHP and the picture is HPT... does DHP even show that table, is there another table that takes care of similar?... again, honey badger is key here.

Keep in mind when you reply, you told me a few times that you swapped two transmissions in your Regal before we met and you did so in two hours flat. Then you got pissy with me for joking about you dumping a good amount of trans fluid on the floor at my place, because in your words, "I've never pulled a transmission pan". Hell.. I tossed down speedy dri. Add that to you telling seasoned and respected folks to shut up and that they know nothing about these cars etc, it makes it tough to believe a lot of what you say.

No disrespect meant, merely a viewed perception.

**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by BillBoost37

The table I posted clearly identifies that there is timing reduction during a shift, based upon some criteria being met. Whether you want to believe how it's injected etc, I couldn't honestly care. I've conversed with many a seasoned/professional tuner on the subject as well as reading the FSM on the subject. GM did a nice job of describing how things work. Keep in mind you are also using DHP and the picture is HPT... does DHP even show that table, is there another table that takes care of similar?... again, honey badger is key here.

Keep in mind when you reply, you told me a few times that you swapped two transmissions in your Regal before we met and you did so in two hours flat. Then you got pissy with me for joking about you dumping a good amount of trans fluid on the floor at my place, because in your words, "I've never pulled a transmission pan". Hell.. I tossed down speedy dri. Add that to you telling seasoned and respected folks to shut up and that they know nothing about these cars etc, it makes it tough to believe a lot of what you say.

No disrespect meant, merely a viewed perception.

I see you're still not above lying to people about me in an attempt to make it seem like I'm new at this, when I've clearly explained to you why you're wrong.
Your perception is contrived.

You posted a picture of a torque management table. I've explained very clearly that torque management has nothing to do with knock or KR.
KR is signaled when the knock sensor detects either real or false knock.
There is no other way.
This is a painfully novice concept we're talking about...

Why you continue to hammer on it is beyond me, but all you're doing is making it look like you really have no clue what's going on.

**crbquist** · 10-28-2013

Never thought this thread would be going back to the grassroots of the 3800 genre.. Lol

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**danomite02** · 10-28-2013

jezus guys. lol

**BillBoost37** · 10-28-2013

Nick, the funny thing here is it's you that are the liar. I haven't said a thing about you that wasn't 100% true and accurate.

You've suggested you know about knock and you don't appear to...at all. There is no such thing as false knock, it's a myth and a ghost that some folks use to explain why they can't correct a knock issue.

"The PCM contains integrated Knock Sensor (KS) Diagnostic Circuitry. Input signals from the knock sensors are used to detect engine detonation, allowing the PCM to retard ignition control (IC) spark timing based on the amplitude and frequency of the KS signal being received. The knock sensors produce an AC signal under all engine operating conditions. The PCM calculates an average voltage of each knock sensor's signal and takes instantaneous signal voltage readings. The PCM uses the instantaneous signal voltage readings to determine the state of the Knock Sensor Circuitry. If the Knock Sensor System is operating normally, the PCM should monitor instantaneous KS signal voltage readings varying outside a voltage range above and below the calculated average voltage, as shown in the normal knock sensor figure."

Now that you've learned about the knock sensor a bit. It's time to google further. I am willing to provide proof or at learn further. Found very little backing up kr being induced at the shift. Although again there are quite a few guys speaking about it.

Jared (had a GT500 blower on his car) http://idahoclub3800.com/viewtopic.p...b7d78c4b7dcc88
Not even much about it.

I've read quite a bit and found a few things that support the understanding I had and a few that contradict it. I am a stand up, honest guy, which is why I post this information. Reading up more in the FSM and ... would you believe it looks like you are wrong? Damn shame you won't post anything that proves it out.

**crbquist** · 10-28-2013

Not worth dragging this on gents.. Who cares who is right or wrong here.. It's obviously a matter of specific opinion. Many say there is such a thing as false knock, others don't... Including vendors.

Now back to the original subject... E85 rocks!!!!

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**SnowFlake** · 10-28-2013

Originally Posted by BillBoost37

Nick, the funny thing here is it's you that are the liar. I haven't said a thing about you that wasn't 100% true and accurate.

You've suggested you know about knock and you don't appear to...at all. There is no such thing as false knock, it's a myth and a ghost that some folks use to explain why they can't correct a knock issue.

"The PCM contains integrated Knock Sensor (KS) Diagnostic Circuitry. Input signals from the knock sensors are used to detect engine detonation, allowing the PCM to retard ignition control (IC) spark timing based on the amplitude and frequency of the KS signal being received. The knock sensors produce an AC signal under all engine operating conditions. The PCM calculates an average voltage of each knock sensor's signal and takes instantaneous signal voltage readings. The PCM uses the instantaneous signal voltage readings to determine the state of the Knock Sensor Circuitry. If the Knock Sensor System is operating normally, the PCM should monitor instantaneous KS signal voltage readings varying outside a voltage range above and below the calculated average voltage, as shown in the normal knock sensor figure."

Now that you've learned about the knock sensor a bit. It's time to google further. I am willing to provide proof or at learn further. Found very little backing up kr being induced at the shift. Although again there are quite a few guys speaking about it.

Jared (had a GT500 blower on his car) http://idahoclub3800.com/viewtopic.p...b7d78c4b7dcc88
Not even much about it.

I've read quite a bit and found a few things that support the understanding I had and a few that contradict it. I am a stand up, honest guy, which is why I post this information. Reading up more in the FSM and ... would you believe it looks like you are wrong? Damn shame you won't post anything that proves it out.

All you've provided is a quote of how a knock sensor operates, and then a bunch of nonsense about how guys are talking about it, with no actual links to articles (like I provided) or data. You've provided nothing that proves your position that false knock is a ghost, and you've provided nothing to refute that KR is induced at the shifts as a measure of torque management. At this point, I have no idea how anyone has any sort of respect for you, or how you have any credibility what-so-ever. You've argued against well known and established positions in the 3800 community. We all know that cars can show false knock, and we all know that KR is not torque management. These are simple, novice concepts that even beginners are well aware of.

Your lies about me are another attempt to smear my good reputation as a knowledgable and informed member of the community. Why you hold such a grudge against me, I'll never know. What I do know is that I'll continue to help people of this community understand real and factual information regarding our platform. This is not about who's right or wrong... this is someone who is arguing against every knowledgable 3800 guy before him, including vendors, PRJ, and current gurus. Why you chose to argue such a basic, proven, and known idea is totally beyond me.

Once again, in case any of you are confused.
False knock is real (lol)
Torque management does not manifest itself as KR.

These are not debatable facts... they are just that, facts.
Anyone who takes a position that is opposite of these facts does not possess the knowledge of even beginner 3800 enthusiasts.

I'm happy to have cleared this up for all of you.