car rattles after cam install then wont start at all!

**chrisb** · 07-05-2008

alright guys i finally installed my INTENSE stg 1 cam along with jp timing chain and oer lifters everything was cleaned and lifters were put in oil a day before the install. after we got everything back together the car ran fine ran strong on the top end but when i was running the car i started to get valve float so i stopped runing it hard. when i left my friends house i notice the car ran really sluggish like a (4cylinder) so i dropped into second and it would barely pick up speed and was making this rattling noise that went up with the rpms.
first thing that was checked was oil pressure it was45 to 50 psi at idle and climbed with the rpms.
i though it was valve train related and the lifters werent pumping up all the way.
we checked the dampener pulley and that seems to be where the noise is coming from....but it also sounds like its from the top some.
now the car wont start and sounded like somthin is locked up in there.
also it did through some codes and timing was jumping all over the place!
i think its the dampener that is all screwed up and caused the timing to be out .
any ideas are welcomed, thanks in advance

**Orbital431** · 07-05-2008

still turns over though?

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

The dampner wouldnt cause the timing to be out. Did you align the timing dots correctly? they should look like this. This is from when i installed my xp cam about a month ago.

Did you put the cam thrust pate back on correctly? or back on at all?

Here is the link to the direct thread of mine-http://www.grandprixforums.net/f14/the-swap-pic-heavy-4210.html

**chrisb** · 07-05-2008

well the car stoped turning over so i got a wrench and turned it over by hand at first it was really hard then it broke loose and turnover really easy and smooth. yes i had all the dots line up on the timing chain and balance shaft, also the thrust plate was put back on. it does crank over put its very hard to keep it running, and the im pretty sure the noice is coming from the balancer

by the way nice write up the pics would have been helpfull when i did mine

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Well the ballancer wouldnt throw the engine out of time. Now if you had a bad ballancer you may get a bad vibration from the engine but thats it. how long was the engine running for? I'd do an oil change and inspect it for any kind of metal debris before i would touch the motor anymore.

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Im not saying to do this but can you turn the engine over by just using the starter? Again if the engine was runnning for a little while i'd do a oil analisis first before. That may not be a sure way of finding out if something internally is messed up but it's a good start. What kind of noise is comming from the ballancer?

**chrisb** · 07-05-2008

well i was driving it yesterday with no promblems i had about 40 miles on it before it took a crap on me, now im not saying your wrong on the balancer part but doesnt the computer use the inner part of the balancer to know when to fire the spark plugs? my uncle and cousin+ dad who are mechanics all say the the second piece inside the balancer can brake loose from the outside and spin freely kinda like a spun rod bearing causing the timing to be off. when i scan with hp tuners timing would fall off and the car would die, then when i tried starting it back up it would crank over but it was like half of the cylinders were not firing to turn the crank completely over. oh and the sound is like a rattling sound scraping sound. oil was changed after it ran for a few mins after the cam install

**Orbital431** · 07-05-2008

I'm still learning about engine troubleshooting, but i'd want to have a look at the hedz/valves/etc., and maybe the cam again. *shrugs* i phail :'(

**chrisb** · 07-05-2008

well first thing going to do is put a new harmonic balancer in it. my uncle and dad and me are convinced that it is this it started to squeal a bit there....so yeah.

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Well the harmonic ballancer has teeth so to speak that passes basicly through a magnet wich would be called the crank position sensor. I cant tell anything about what is going on when you say the timing falls off without a scan. So send me a .hpl file if you happen to save it. I have hpt so I will be able to read it...matter o fact post a scan depo scan so everyone can see it.

I could be wrong but i don't think that is your problem...any dtc's

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

So when the car died on you did the engine come to an abrupt stop? did you try to turn it over after it died to start it back up?? Did you do a case learn after the cam install? Any tuning done to your .bin file? While that may be possible on a harmonic ballancer (what the ppl you know were talking about) I can almost assure you it is not your problem

**archemedes** · 07-05-2008

if it was hard to turn over, it wasn't the balancer causing that, if it turns free now do a compression test, then pull the heads and see what is broken on the cylinders with little or no compression

**chrisb** · 07-05-2008

when it dies timing starts to dip and and it will slowly die. case learn was done right after the install. i had it tuned before i put the cam in with higher timing tables and maf tunning.
the cylinders have compression i can feel it when i turn it over im thinking the starter was stuck on the flywheel some how cause it to lock up but i was able to break it loose by turning it over. car does run but very rough and doesnt stay on more then 3 to 4 mins. during all of this rpms are bouncing all over the place.

ill see if i cant get a scan tom if i still cant find the promblem

**Orbital431** · 07-05-2008

i'd want to look at that cam and the headz if it's all over the place like that

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Post up your ENTIRE mod list.Everything. Return timing tables to stock. Maf tune should have been done after the cam install. As well as timing tables wich would come after you got the fueling straight.Make a pid for LTFT+STFT and put that with a liniar scale of the maf in hertz. That will give you the custom histro that you need for your maf tune to get it started. Also post up EVERYTHING you have done to your .bin file.

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Originally Posted by chrisb

when it dies timing starts to dip and and it will slowly die.

That may be normal due to ''other problems'' that we havet figured out yet. The pcm is going to command how much timing the engine needs to run. Unless it's been changed.Thats why i suggested to change the high and low octane tables back to stock. so we can over look that.

TDCRacing · 07-05-2008

Originally Posted by chrisb

car does run but very rough and doesnt stay on more then 3 to 4 mins. during all of this rpms are bouncing all over the place.

bouncing all over the place...like what are we talking here? what rannge i mean? 800-1600? also when does the car die? at idle? and for the record. does the engine turn freely right now? If you dont know take the plugs out and turn it by hand just incase something is messed up internally.Exclude the starter-no way that would cause it.

**chrisb** · 07-07-2008

heres the three codes it did set, car is in the garage and is going to be torn down to find the promblem.

[PCM] P0171 - Fuel Trim System Lean Bank 1 (Old) (Immature)
[PCM] P0620 - Generator Control Circuit Malfunction (History) (Immature)
[PCM] P1133 - HO2S Insufficient Switching Bank 1 Sensor 1 (Old) (Current) (Immature)

TDCRacing · 07-07-2008

P0171- Look and listen for any vacume leaks-If none present you need to add fuel via the maf table because you are to lean.

P1133- It is possible that your getting this dtc because of your lean condition. If not you may need a new o2 sensor. If you didnt have this code before then i would think it would be because of the lean condition.

Again flash the pcm with the 100% stock .bin file. start from there. If you dont have a stock .bin file anymore go to the repository on hpt and get one. Once you do that make a ltft+stft histrogram and plot against MAF output frequency in hertz. In other words do a maf tune...drive for as long as you can.flash and repeate untill the FT's are locking in at 0 at PT and FT.And you probably shouldnt go over 7500 hrtz without a wide band.Just adjust idle and PT by doing it this way.Then above 7500 hertz (or what ever wot is for you) just watch your o2's and adjust accordingly via the maf table.Either increasing it for more fuel or vise versa.You need to get your fueling straight.Both WOT and PT. Then work on timing. then trasmission shift points ect.

As far as the other code im not sure what that is...maybe someone else can anwser. In tho older cars they used to call the alternator by the term generator.

Again im almost certain you have a vacume leak.The smallest on can make it throw a lean condition code.Chack everywhere...vac lines...lim...everything.

TDCRacing · 07-07-2008

What are your FT's doing when you have the scanner up and running? At idle at PT. Avacume leak could also make the car stall and hard to start...not turn over...depending on the size of the leak.