Thread: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason?

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  1. #81 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Lol, I just looked at my scans when I first noticed this issue. IAT's hit 154°! That was when I was trying to just tune idle. Yeah, I think I'm getting that header wrap. If the speed daddy's rust out, good riddance.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  2. #82 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Found another idle scan with 174° So I would mess with idle then immediately scan and drive. I'd look at logs and see it increasingly going lean because of the high IAT's. I'd pull fuel then quit till next day. 2nd day I take it for a scan without doing an idle scan, and boom my car is rich. Rinse and repeat. For two weeks...Dang I'm an idiot. So here's my rookie mistake. I wasn't paying attention to my IAT because I only equated that with the spark table that only pulled a degree or two of timing max. I stupidly overlooked the fact that hot air is less dense which means less O2.

    Which means leaner, which means hotter, which means leaner.... I have heard leaner doesn't always mean hotter though. Though maybe I'm wrong about that.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  3. #83 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    I'm not aware of any tables that affect fueling based on iat.
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  5. #84 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    lets delete the evap. pull its vac line and cap it off. see if the trims are more stable.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  6. #85 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    There are no trims. He's in open loop. There is something in the pcm causing it to add fuel once the map dips below a certain point.
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  7. #86 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    lets delete the evap. pull its vac line and cap it off. see if the trims are more stable.
    That's a good idea. I never saw it mentioned in the guides, but that certainly can help during tuning.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  8. #87 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    i figure it cant hurt either way. it could be leaking, or doing its thing as the tank level drops. capping it off just removes a possible cause.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  9. #88 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    "I just loaded my last adjustment and drove for about an hour to get another scan. over the last couple weeks of tuning I've noticed if I make adjustments from scans taken too soon after an adjustment it leans the fueling. I went on grand prix forums this morning and discussed the lean situation and they suggested I unplug my evap and then turn the evap code off. I did so when I loaded this last adjustment. looking at my maf ltft's after this scan was done and they are damn near perfect in every cell recorded. think I have an evap problem?"
    ~SgtMarshal

    Found this in an old thread. I even commented in the thread, lol. Think I'll just delete the evap. Pretty sure I have one or two of the codes disabled already as I've always had a cel for evap I couldn't fix. Between evap and super high IAT's I think we've narrowed down the tuning irregularities.

    Also I should be getting the proper values for my sd 60's soon. Finally will have a clean base for a good tune. 😁
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  10. #89 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GrandPrix Junkie SgtMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandook View Post
    "I just loaded my last adjustment and drove for about an hour to get another scan. over the last couple weeks of tuning I've noticed if I make adjustments from scans taken too soon after an adjustment it leans the fueling. I went on grand prix forums this morning and discussed the lean situation and they suggested I unplug my evap and then turn the evap code off. I did so when I loaded this last adjustment. looking at my maf ltft's after this scan was done and they are damn near perfect in every cell recorded. think I have an evap problem?"
    ~SgtMarshal

    Found this in an old thread. I even commented in the thread, lol. Think I'll just delete the evap. Pretty sure I have one or two of the codes disabled already as I've always had a cel for evap I couldn't fix. Between evap and super high IAT's I think we've narrowed down the tuning irregularities.

    Also I should be getting the proper values for my sd 60's soon. Finally will have a clean base for a good tune. 

    i had to highlight that post to read it. I remember my evap causing issues when I was tuning the car. deleted the evap and all my irregularities went away. i also deleted the egr because it was doing funny things too. There are something like 10 codes for the evap all in the P0440 range.

    on a different note, a year or so ago I installed a ported lim that I modified so I could install an air temperature sensor that read through the iat, and i remember it definitely affected my fuel trims. I don't remember if it read lean or rich, but I remember they were wonky until I unplugged that sensor and plugged it back into the regular iat sensor.
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  11. #90 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Yeah my bad, I use my phone in desktop version and I screwed the formatting up when I copy pasted that quote.

    So you think there is an IAT table that effects fueling somewhere? V8 guys have the tables I think. On our car there is only a spark table that only pulls a couple degrees of spark. Would be nice if there wasn't mysterious tables doing things in the background.

    I remember when I first did the swap and was talking to a tuner he said he would prefer if I put an IAT in the lower intake.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  12. #91 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Well, this is how tuning should be. Was able to dial in my error % within 1-3. And it only took 3 road sessions. Thank you guys so much for the help and inspiration.

    Prior to getting htp, my car was so pig rich. On startup it made a horrible noise as the IAC was probably open all the way and sucking in air to keep it running. And it smelled terrible. I much prefer the smell of gas. It was not terrible to cold start, but it took a few seconds. And if i tried to start it while it was still warm, I'd have to throttle it for 30 seconds. Now it starts much quicker and warm starts are instant.

    Got my harness extended, just need to get some more tape and wire loom. Then I can tune spark. Really looking forward to that. I switched to an 04 Impala SS spark table. The cruise and part throttle areas are higher than what I had. Car does feel better down low. May be placebo, because I haven't really been able to get on it for weeks. SS WOT timing is very low though. But i have a good base to work with i think.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  13. #92 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    if you want a higher timing file, the comp g timing hits 18 ish.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  14. #93 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GrandPrix Junkie SgtMarshal's Avatar
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    so you figured it out then? what was the fix?
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  15. #94 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    evap leak, aka vac leak.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  16. #95 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Disconnecting evap certainly helped my tuning logs. Much more consistent. A big thing was also heat creep and my tuning procedure. I would warm up car, drive and tune. Pull over, make adjustments, then repeat. However, as you are sitting with the engine off the heat is saturating the engine. So then I take off and immediately log for another tune. Well, the heat has leaned everything out so now my AFR error % is off again.

    I do believe the FWI really helped. With the HAI, Everytime the fans kicked on it would go real lean. Screwed up my logs. Overall it was a combination of things I think. The MAP issue may have been a red herring, or not, but I feel better having a 1 bar because there definitely is other reports of an l36 pcm freaking out when it sees boost. I did not see it going crazy rich on decel today either. Also my lowest IPW I had was 1.7, usually 1.8. Tonight I saw 1.6 for the first time. Not sure what caused that though.

    Also, have you guys used Bluecats transmission calculator? I used that a week ago and my car is much smoother shifting. I used to have issues with converter lock in 4th causing knock when I slowly stepped on the gas. Now it locks and unlocks much smoother and shifts like a stock car. I do have a shift kit and increased pressure, but the calculator made everything smooth but still firm. Highly recommend it.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  17. #96 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    A little update. Got the open loop tune pretty close. I fixed the O2 harness and went closed loop today. Car has never felt this nice. Mid rpm has definitely improved. Feels like a new car. I can't believe I ran almost 3 years with it so rich. I used to see 10-10.2 afr at WOT, got it up to 11 with no knock, 18° timing. Low rpm is still a little rich. Gonna try to clean that up with fuel trim tune. Decel isn't going stupid rich any more. O2 signal is more active. Thanks to GTPpower for pointing out the O2 issue. And thanks to everyone else for helping.

    Did an oil change. Was a bit low. Pretty sure oil pan is leaking. Dunno if I will mess with it any time soon though. Just want to drive it now.

    Working on a track day soon. Boss is bringing his Cuda, neighbor his Challenger. I've been telling myself for 3 years that I just want one time slip. Think the time has come...
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  18. #97 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    Glad to hear it's running good.


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  19. #98 Re: Car running LEAN right after it was running fine for what reason? 
    GrandPrix Junkie SgtMarshal's Avatar
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    track days are awesome, do it.
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