Thread: Should I and what to replace??

Hi Andy, welcome to the forum! That is a neat swap you have, I know of a few guys that have done 3800 swaps but not retained the 3.1 and used a 4T65E so props to you to get it working! Since you have a 98 trans it is common to see the hot spots on the 4th steel plates as there was an inadequate lube concern in that area. Around 02/03 timeframe newly designed 4th frictions were release with a lot more grooves which allow a lot more fluid to retain on the friction plate and just about eliminated the problem and I have taken apart 100K mile trans with new looking 4th frictions and steel plates. WOT 3-4 shifts are going to put more stress here so of course the easy driven cars are going to look better with higher mileage but even with easy driven 02 and older cars the hot spotting is common to see. There really is nothing you can do other than work on the 3-4 accumulator and tuning to make the 3-4 shift firmer but isnt typically a concern area as most guys have 2.93 gears or 3.29s and that makes for a 125+mph WOT 3-4 shift which is not something that happens every day for most people There is a thicker steel plate you can use to shim the 3-4 pack and may help quicken the shift timing but I am not a fan of doing this and here is why...... Tighter clearance here is going to give more spotting problems as the fluid wont be able to stay put as much as the plates will be tighter together-lack of lube equals leapard spots on steels. Also 4th frictions are only applied in 4th and during 1/4 mile and dyno pulls this clutch needs to have sufficient clearance to prevent centrifugal drag and needs plenty of lube fluid. The Volvo and Comp G tapshift transmissions use a single sided type friction plate for 4th clutch where there are two single side outer splined plates and two inner splined plates. I have not really found this to be a necessity or improvement since the newer standard replacement frictions with extra oil grooves came out. The early Transgo shift kits used to have a spacer that went on top of the 4th accumulator piston about .300" long and I dont think it made much difference and after a few years they quit including it but it may slightly firm up the shifts. Tuning may be your best bet here. You dont see any mention of the 3-4 accumulator upgrades because it is not something that most guys are going to get into and the 1-2/2-3 accumulator body is easily accessable from the bottom pan. Not much of anybody wants to go digging in the channel plate and the minimal gains arent worth all the headache unless it is already going to be apart. The Transgo kit also includes different 4th accumulator springs and I use the larger of the two supplied and use it with the stock springs-where they tell you to discard them. This will give a firmer spring setup and slightly firm up the 3-4 shift. For your HP level I would not suggest opening up any feeds in the plate but you could open the 2nd feed to about .080" and 3rd to .093" and it should make a little quicker shift feel. The bigger difference that you can make is to go inside the trans and tighten up the 2nd and 3rd clutch packs as they have way too much clearance in stock form and this really helps quicken shifts but also means removing clutch drums and can really fight going back together in the car. I hope this gives you some info and help that you were looking for

OK! Here are some pix! How do these look? I don't like the splines on the pump shaft (converter side). Only ~40K miles on this tranny. There is one of the clutches and both steels. Also the 3-4 accum. Do I still need to scotch bright the surface?

Hey thanks! Yeah, it sits like a factory install. I can't take all the credit. I had the designs, ideas, and options. The shop did about 75% of the labor, the rest was helping and fixing what they screwed up. Sad huh? Anyway, 3-4 accum.....I'll get the Borg-Warner standard replacement OD clutches. Will those address the lube issue? I hit the 3-4 shift at about 105-110 MPH. I was just wondering if I'm in in 4th and TCC locked and nail it, if I can get it to downshift faster.

The new Borg Warner OE frictions pretty much get rid of the hot spot/lube problem on the 4th frictions. Downshift timing is up to the trans controller completely, so that is where you need to work on speeding up the downshifts if you are not happy with them because since all shifts are conrolled by the solenoids' current state the shifts are dependant on when they are told to do their job

I've seen the TransGo kits. I thought they just had stock replacement springs and what looks like shims as well. What exactly is in them and should I get one? I have the valve body off and channel plate too. My HP will change later down the road. I have full control over line pressure. How much psi vs. tps at my disposal. If I end up making things to firm, I can take line psi down. I guess the main question is: will I get the same effect if I were to drill holes, or increase line psi, or shim the accums, or add stiffer springs to the sccums, or any number of those combinations? I do know each one individually to some point will give a firmer shift, but can I have a faster shift without a firmer shift?

I could go further in the tranny, but money won't let me. Looking at the 1-2 and 2-3 accums while installed in the tranny, the larger diameter springs are on top, and smaller diameter springs are on bottom. Why the two sets of springs? Won't they offset each other for the most part? one set of springs is for upshift, and the other set is for downshift correct? Which is which and why? If I were to just shim the downshift side, wouldn't that speed up the downshift?

The accumulator springs are FAR from stock replacements and a much improved upgrade. Transgo is very big on progressive accumulator setups and most of their shift kits use this fashion as it gives great part throttle feel as well as quicker full throttle apply. Drilling the feeds will allow more fluid to apply the clutches, just heavier springs or blocking accumulators will quicken the time that the fluid takes to get to the clutch packs but not in the same manor. The accumulator is a cushion and pressure has to work against the spring and fluid pressure on the other side of the accumulator piston. Every trans is set up differently here and you are not just working against spring pressure as there is fluid pressure on both sides as well. The soft factory springs make the shift feel pretty lazy and it is drawn out. Once the accumulator spring compresses and the pressure that takes to apply the clutch pack equals and at this point becomes easier to apply the clutch pack it will then apply. There is a spring pack on the clutch piston to hold it off also and this has to be overcome in order for the clutches to apply. Firmer accumulator springs will shorten up the time it takes for this to happen. The Transgo kits include new springs and also spacers to limit travel so the piston doesnt move soo far and will apply the clutch sooner. The factory pcm learns how long shifts take and can compensate for this within a window. Your aftermarket control likely wont learn to anything and just does what it is programmed to do. The benifit of using the shift kit and also opening up feed holes is that you can run lower line pressure which is less stress on the pump and pump shaft. Tightening up the clearances in the 2nd and 3rd clutch packs makes a big difference in Quickening up the shifts without making them harsh or too firm-that can be adjust via shift kit, feed hole size, and tuning.

Good info about the feeds. That's what I was thinking about doing. I just didn't know by how much. Why not drill the exhaust too? From what I was told, the shimming forces fluid at higher volume and psi to the clutches, making the upshift faster and firmer. Allowing the fluid back out of the clutches faster makes for a faster downshift. Correct?

When I make these mods, I will go conservatively. I have shims, springs, drilling, and line pressure to play with. I figure if I do a little here and there, I can fine tune with line psi.

The exhaust hole sizes are important for shift timing and not so much to quicken up a downshift and here is what I mean by that as far as timing... If a clutch pack does not disengage early enough you will have a binding feeling and the clutches will burn prematurely as you are momentarily trying to apply two things at the same time and the two different gear ratios fight against the clutches. If the exhaust holes are too big you can get a rpm flare between the shifts and downshifts as one clutch is coming off too early. The factory setup works fine and has good timing for upshift and downshifts. As I mentioned earlier the speed of the downshift is influenced more by the tune than anything else. On the 97+ cars downshifts are pretty much instant, or at least where they are programmed to happen. Sometimes it is hard to get a 3-1 downshift under certain criteria but the pcm has protection tuned into it to prevent a few things from happening so the hardparts dont get trashed on a kickdown. Ford for exampe has a huge delay on the rwd Mustang/Crown Vic/Light Truck transmissions as it would explode the 2nd roller clutch after a while. The fix for this problem was valve body and pcm calibration changes to make it a 3-2-1 downshift rather than a straight 3-1 downshift as all of the inertia would crash against the roller clutch and it would eventually fail. All auto makers know the limits and weak points and these are all things that are considered in the tune


Added- I forgot about your pump shaft! The spline wear is hit and miss on these shafts but is common to see. Running higher line pressure puts more stress on the pump and will speed up spline wear on the pump shaft. I have seen pump shafts with similar mileage to yours look the same and I have seen some with over 150K that look new, but the majority around 80-120K look about like yours or worse. I have never seen one completley stripped out but I have seen them pretty close. There are a few voids in the splines in the converter so if the splines did strip then it would spin a few teeth in rotation and grab the splines again and probably continue to run for a long time. The ZZP pump shaft puts an end to this but really isnt a necessary item as the stocker will last a very long time. You can replace what you have with a stock one but make sure the ones you are looking at have good splines because I have seen many used ones that dont look any better than what you have and many shops will use them without question so they are sold in that condition.

I will be using all new channel plate gaskets, separator plate and gaskets, and OD clutch kit.

The Transgo kit also includes different 4th accumulator springs and I use the larger of the two supplied and use it with the stock springs-where they tell you to discard them.

So, in total, you have 3 springs, not 2 in the 4th accum?

Something I've noticed with the higher end shift kits...they have you put shims on top and bottom of the pistons (1-2, 2-3). Why is that?

See if I got this straight here....

-Good idea to replace pump shaft.
-drill oil feeds
-also sounds like TransGo kit is the way to go

I'd give anything to tighten up the clutches. Man! I just can't.

What about the valve body? There are so many different shift correction kit styles and materials. Anything I should replace there besides the boost valve? Hell, the car might see 8000 miles per year at the most. I've been putting about 11,000 on my DD, so 8000 is rather high still. As it sits now and not replacing anything, it should do fine for another 5 years or so. But, man, a lot of work went into just getting the side cover off. I'd hate to have to do it again that soon! haha!

Even though the 4th accum is groovy, you can still see the machining, would it be a good idea to scotch bright it anyway? I'm about to purchase this stuff. I'm getting anxious to driver her again and finish tuning.

I'm going to PM you a question too.

Got the TransGo kit today. Interesting setup. Anyone know why the 3-4 springs are shorter by 1/4 inch? Intense Racing, for my converter, has shims of equal length above and below the 1-2 and 2-3 accumulator pistons. TransGo kit has the 1/2" above the piton and 3/4 below for 2-3, and just the 3/4 above the piston in 1-2. Shim positions are described as installed in the tranny. Seems like the more I learn, the less I know.

Off topic, how do you like that EP Diff?? Where'd ya get it? Thanks...

Omaha Eh? I've spent alot of time out there! Most of my family lives there, where abouts? My uncle and cousins build homes + townhouses there, if I told you the name of the business i'd just about bet you'd know it.

It's pretty good. There is about 6000 miles on it and I can still torque my lug nuts with both wheels in the air. I don't do much in the way of burnouts or anything. It's there more for diff protection and future power adding. I don't go testing it on every corner either. I got it from here: Engineered Performance It did take 8 months of badgering him in order to finally get it. He does make a good product. Just takes for ever.

After studying the TransGo kit, I got the 1-2 and 2-3 accumulators apart today. I couldn't believe how much shorter and thinner the factory springs are! Huge difference in springs, then you add shims! Things are going back together slowly, but nicely. Can't wait to finish things up.

I hear people are reusing their accumulator gaskets. Is that ok? One side came off spotless and the other side hasn't moved. #1 pic, on the left is stock, on the right is all TransGo. #2 is 1-2 and 2-3 one TransGo spring vs. stock. #3 is 3-4 accumulator springs, TransGo vs. stock (yellow springs). With the stiffer springs and shims, I don't see how the shift won't be somewhat effected.

I dont personally like to reuse the accumulator gasket/plate but I know of a lot of guys do and it may work out fine since you said it didnt tear anywhere. Make sure you torque all of the bolts! As vastly different as the accumulator setup looks it really doesnt make that big of a difference.

got a little more done last night. the first 2 pix are the 2-1 manual servo. can anyone tell me if this filter is a Delco or aftermarket? i have the accumulator back in now, and i decided to break open the old filter to see what the filter caught. so i sit with the pan off waiting for a filter, wiring harness, 3-4 accumulator piston, pin and seal. it is possible i'll have it running by next weekend.

Slowly but surely things are getting done. Got GM has a revised 3-4 accumulator. The seal looks different, and at the bottom of the housing, there is now a provision to center the springs and keep them there. The valve body is assembled and bolted to the channel plate, and the whole thing will be mounted at some point between this Fri. and Sun. Nobody has a good used wiring harness in town, so I ordered one from Triple Edge Performance. Looks like I'll be held up until Mon., or Wed. That's fine since I still have to mod a set of 99 Grand Am cooling fans to work with the car.

The harness shipped out yesterday USPS Priority so you should see it tomorrow but with the weather the way it has been around here it may take an extra day. Glad to hear things are going back together nicely for you!

OH?? Sweet! I thought you weren't going to send it out priority since it was going to be, what, $9-13. Get it tomorrow...cool. Thanks T-man! I appreciate you taking the time to quickly answer all of my questions in detail. I'm not sure where I'd be with this project without your help. I was only going to replace my cracked side cover... I've double checked my work (reading my service manual) after double checking my work (actual assembly). Though I fear the worst, (anxious sigh) I feel confident I've been thorough enough, at least two times, that things will work great. I sure hope it does. I put a lot of extra work to ensure cleanliness and accuracy.

So much for the weekend. My welded crack on the side cover leaked when I filled the cover with water and let it sit. I'm waiting to see where I'll get the money for the replacement. Though, I may get a much higher paying job soon. In which case,I can afford going further into the tranny and tighten things up in there.

Finally getting the new side cover on Wed. Then I can get this thing back together! The 99 Grand Am cooling fan swap is going great so far. Just have to wiggle the secondary fan in.

WHOO HOO!!! Got er done and running without a hitch!! Haven't road tested yet since we got 5 inches of snow last night. It did just fine shifting up in the air. WHEW! Can't wait to drive it now. The 99 Grand Am cooling fan is a success as well. That was a *****!! Had to remove two coils, and jack the engine up and down while wiggling the fan in. Frickin tight in there, but it almost looks like it was meant to be. Pretty sweet!

HOLY CRAP!! Got it out on the road and what a difference!! Shifts are quick and precise. The downshifts are almost instanious, even the 3-1!! It almost feels like downshifting a stick shift at WOT without taking your foot off the gas. Floor it, less than a second later, bang! You're off! I just installed a TransGo kit, drilled the seperater plate and added Valvolene Dex VI (full synthetic). WOW! Thanks for all your help Dave!

Here's a pic of the nearly completed cooling fans.--Well I would, but it won't let me even though it meets all criteria. Help?